Why no Clr/Rog PrC?

[Malin Genie]

Because arcane spellcasters are fragile things that lose a LOT by not being able to access highest-level spells and losing spell penetration ability. Moreover, in the case of the arcane trickster and EK, the non-spellcasting component (rogue or fighter) loses hp and BAB by taking spellcasting levels. Clerics, OTOH, excel at buffing rather than direct damage, thus making the 3-level spellcasting hit less critical,

and the ability to Cure/Restore/Raise/Heal/Resurrect party members isn't important? I also don't know that I agree with you about direct damage - a Flame Strike or Fire Storm does as much damage as Wizard spells of those levels.

and contribute hp, BAB, and domain abilities to their non-spellcasting component, rather than subtracting class abilities. Unlike in the case of the wizard component in the MT, a rogue doesn't sacrifice very much by having levels of cleric, since a rogue doesn't have a critical dependence on spell access and caster level.

Admittedly the Clr BAB is the same as the Rog and hp better, so there is less 'sacrifice' in BAB/hp terms - but there is still a skill loss (and in the case of a Clr with likely lower Int than a Wizard probably a greater skill loss) and Sneak Attack / Uncanny Dodge / progression to further Rogue abilities loss.

Thus, the Divine Trickster wins out on all counts; it's a rogue with a good Will save, a better Fort save, domain powers, slightly improved hit points, kewl powers (sneak attacking undead, domain spontaneous casting, and Wis bonus to certain skill checks would all make MIGHTY "signature" PrC features on their own), and 13 levels of cleric spellcasting by 16th level, in exchange for +2d6 sneak attack damage (offset by the fact that the rogue can SA with touch spells and can use spells to create SA conditions), skill points, and some minor MAD.

The Divine Trickster as written is probably too powerful (see above.) Nevertheless, I point you again toward the Arcane Trickster - the 15 levels of Wizard casting are worth more than 15 levels of Cleric casting, especially in their ability to create SA conditions (can Clerics cast blink or greater invisibility?) The hit to the rogue is -2 1/2 d6 Sneak Attack, skill point loss (only 4+/level rather than 8+ - compensated at least in part for the Wiz/Rog if not the Sor/Rog by the Intelligence synergy) and a couple of points of BAB.

A 4+/level Divine Trickster will have far fewer skills than a pure rogue, as well as losing a couple of dice Sneak Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Rogue special abilities. The BAB and hp will not suffer as much, but (YMMV) I feel that the greater versatility, synergy (see above) and power of Wiz/Sor spells makes the trade-off a fair one.

 

[ruleslawyer]

1) A cleric with the Trickery domain gets Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills, making the requirements for the DivTrickster less onerous than for the ArcTrickster, since wizards have none of the prereq "roguish" skills as class skills.

2) I'm not looking at this class as a cleric with some nifty extras, but as a rogue with some nifty extras, on which count it's MUCH better than a straight rogue. Delayed spell progression is far less relevant, therefore. Even then, it's offset by Domain Versatility, which compensates in part by granting full access to the powerful domain spells.

3) You don't lose uncanny dodge, just improved uncanny dodge, which is a loss whenever you take ANY PrC except a very rogue-specific one like assassin or shadowdancer. As for high-level rogue abilities: You get one of the best ones (Slippery Mind) anyway! Sneak attacking undead easily stacks up against a rogue special ability any day, and there's the other stuff.

4) AT costs a rogue hit points (a precious commodity as is to the rogue) and +3d6 SA (I guess you can be more precise, but this is the real loss), and the "couple of points of BAB" you refer to are a pretty huge deal; that's effectively an additional loss of sneak attack damage. Also, keep in mind that the AT suffers penalties for wearing armor, whereas the DT doesn't; a DT can wear a mithril chain shirt or some such without even the hint of a penalty, whereas the AT does have to minimize ASF. Finally, the wizard doesn't confer much in the way of class abilities (Scribe Scroll, but that's it), whereas the cleric gives two domain abilities plus turning (which the DT can effectively use for divine feats). Lastly, the DT's special abilities are in some ways better than the AT's.

 

[Malin Genie]

It's been generally agreed that the Divine Trickster as written is overpowered. This thread was originally put up to consider the idea of a Clr/Rog PrC in the abstract - one which would advance SA and have reasonable skills, also advance clerical spellcasting, but grant few or no other special abilities.

(1) True, but a 12 Int Clr/Rog gets 3 Cleric skill points per Cleric level. An 18 Int Wiz/Rog gets 6 Wizard skill points per Wizard level, thus allowing as many skills even if she's buying them all cross-class! And anyway, a caster needs Concentration, and Spellcraft while not indispensible is very useful, so I'd be surprised if most caster multiclasses would spend all their 'caster' level skill points on non-caster skills.

(2),(3) A Rogue who loses half her skill points/level? Sneak Attack is part of the Rogue's mix, but the large number of skills is the other main Rogue feature - and skills are the biggest cost relative to a pure Rogue for the Arcane Trickster, as well. I do agree that a Clr/Rog PrC shouldn't provide access to Rogue special abilities like Slippery Mind - that is over the top.

(4) Even with the BAB / hit points and ability to wear light armour of a full Rogue, a Rogue contributes in combat via flanking/Sneak Attack rather than frontal assault. The loss of 2 or 3d of Sneak Attack makes the character a less effective 'secondary combatant'. The Arcane Trickster OTOH can simply fire off a Greater Invisibility and have every attack a Sneak Attack with +2 to hit, and all opponents suffering a 50% miss chance....

Nevertheless, I do see your points that any design for a Rog/Clr PrC needs to take into account the fact that the BAB/hp/armour synergy will make it a better combatant than a Wiz/Rog MC, and that granting major special abilities makes it very good in comparison to the straight Rogue.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Nothing else to say except that I agree on all counts!

Personally, I think a PrC that had the same requirements as the Divine Trickster, granted the same SA progression and same (full) caster level progression, and gave out the ability to, say, spontaneously cast Trickery domain spells at around 5th level or so would be plenty powerful, but a bit more balanced.

One little thing:

The Arcane Trickster OTOH can simply fire off a Greater Invisibility and have every attack a Sneak Attack with +2 to hit, and all opponents suffering a 50% miss chance....

Note that a divine trickster can pull this off with mislead (spontaneously cast, no less!) at Clr3/Rog3/DivT8, which is actually much better than greater invis when using this tactic, since it creates a useful distraction. Now imagine that + Divine Might + Divine Favor + Divine Power!

 

[Malin Genie]

Right, I'm off to House Rules tomorrow to design the perfect Clr/Rog multiclass PrC

Thanks for everybody's thoughts and input; I feel like I've got a better idea of the range of views on why such a class may not have been put forward, and some of the potential pitfalls in designing one!

 

[Darklone]

Note that a divine trickster can pull this off with mislead (spontaneously cast, no less!) at Clr3/Rog3/DivT8, which is actually much better than greater invis when using this tactic, since it creates a useful distraction. Now imagine that + Divine Might + Divine Favor + Divine Power!

Argh... don't remember me of the Divine Power Clr/Rog... One spell to rule them all and so.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, if you are making a PrC like this, definitely do not rack up nice special abilities like in this pretty bad example linked above. That one would still be good, even if you removed all special abilities from level 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 with no replacement.

One thing about skill points... with a character like this, it is totally viable to pick Int over Wis.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Well, my char had good con, int 16, wis 15 and mediocre dex and str... human... no problems with skillpoints

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Well, my char had good con, int 16, wis 15 and mediocre dex and str... human... no problems with skillpoints

This does illustrate the multiple ability dependency of the Clr/Rog. Typically, a cleric needs high Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma (more or less in that order is my preference) and a rogue needs high Intelligence, Dexterity, and Constitution (again my preferred order). Strength benefits both, the cleric moreso than the rogue in my experience, but it would have to be the dump stat for the Clr/Rog (unless you aren't interested in the Cha skills or turning undead).

Of course you can make it work with other ability score arrangements, but the relative lack of synergy among the stats (especially compared to the Rog/Wiz) makes the combination not all that overwhelming.

 

[Taluron]

BTW, there is a Clr/Rog PrC in the FRCS. Don't remember off-hand but I think it made it into the FRPG for 3.5.

Divine Seeker I think (at work, no books).

Doesn't solve the original question of not being in the DMG but I didn't see where anyone else had mentioned it.

And no, it's not over-powered. Geez, just because something is in a Forgotten Realms book...