as i'm reading through the essentials for the rogue/thief class, it seems like a LOT of the striker capabilities have been removed. all the attacks are basic melee/range and no encounter/daily powers. ok sure the feats are nice and all but it looks like the rogue deals way less damage than in the PHB. so why play it?
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why play rogue/thief?
- Thread starter peach
- Start date
Disagree. The rogue in PHB is more utility/control, the theif in essentials is more damage.
Fact is the theif has an easier time getting CA due to movement modes (more relevant for heroic, but I find getting CA easier in the later stages of the game due to powers and enemies constantly being sunned/dazed
) meaning its getting sneak attack more often AND backstab (your only encounter power...which you can use 3 times by lvl 7) all but guarantees the hit AND puts more damage on it.
So the theif will get its striker damage in more often than the rogue did AND do more damage when they do.
Fact is the theif has an easier time getting CA due to movement modes (more relevant for heroic, but I find getting CA easier in the later stages of the game due to powers and enemies constantly being sunned/dazed
) meaning its getting sneak attack more often AND backstab (your only encounter power...which you can use 3 times by lvl 7) all but guarantees the hit AND puts more damage on it.So the theif will get its striker damage in more often than the rogue did AND do more damage when they do.
Dice4Hire
First Post
Actually, they still have encounters, namely backstab. While not very varied, it is still decent.
Also with some of their stances and abilities, getting CA is easier than a standard rogue, so they get their sneak attack a bit more effectively.
I see nothing wrong with the essentials rogue's damage.
Also with some of their stances and abilities, getting CA is easier than a standard rogue, so they get their sneak attack a bit more effectively.
I see nothing wrong with the essentials rogue's damage.
Thieves are pretty effective. They actually get a few more striker bonuses than regular rogues - they get standard Sneak Attack, and also get Weapon Finesse to gain some scaling bonus damage.
Their At-Will movement tricks don't add much in the way of damage (though one can add a few points), but mainly serve to ensure that combat advantage is pretty much always available.
Instead of standard Encounter Powers, they get backstab. Compared to a standard rogue with a dagger, they are probably coming out slightly ahead in terms of damage, and also gain a big accuracy boost. Even compared to a really optimized brutal scoundrel, their damage is probably not far behind, and they will be hitting more often.
What does all of this come at the cost of? Daily powers. And that can be a dealbreaker for some - daily powers can be pretty excellent. But the thief performs well throughout the day, has reliable combat advantage, and hits very often for a solid amount of damage. They definitely aren't far behind the standard rogue at all.
Not to mention that the thief gets a flat damage bonus from Weapon Finesse, and combined with Deft Blade at paragon level, can attack Reflex instead of AC when making basic attacks with a light blade. That is fairly strong.
All the Essentials martial classes lack the game-changing dailies, but are better with their basic attacks and have more at-will tricks. So it is a trade-off between consistent output and nova potential, IMO.
All the Essentials martial classes lack the game-changing dailies, but are better with their basic attacks and have more at-will tricks. So it is a trade-off between consistent output and nova potential, IMO.
Droogie128
First Post
The only downside to the thief, which basically all e-strikers share, is lack of nova potential throughout heroic. This all changes with reserve maneuver at paragon, though.
twilsemail
First Post
I'm fair certain that reserve Maneuver doesn't work with the essentials classes. I could be mistaken, but I recall their encounter powers being "Utilities" and Reserve Maneuver specifies "Encounter Attack Power."
Edit: I've only played a Thief, so I'm unsure on the Slayer and the Scout.
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They are the same class, but the Thief is an alternate build for the Rogue that differs significantly from the standard builds available in the PHB and Martial Power books. The claim above is that the Thief build, despite sharing many of the standard rogue features (like Sneak Attack) is a weaker build due to relying on basic attacks. Which most seem to disagree with.
