why play rogue/thief?

[aurance]

Is it just me, or is someone saying that the rogue and thief are two different classes? From what I've been seeing, they're the same class.

He's referring to PHB rogue vs. Essentials thief. While they're both "rogue" class, the fundamental class structure is different.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I'm fair certain that reserve Maneuver doesn't work with the essentials classes. I could be mistaken, but I recall their encounter powers being "Utilities" and Reserve Maneuver specifies "Encounter Attack Power."

Edit: I've only played a Thief, so I'm unsure on the Slayer and the Scout.

It works with Knights and Slayers, as their Power Strike is an Attack Power, but not with Backstab, as it is a Utility.

I find the discrepancy odd. If someone in my group asked me, I would allow the switch for a Thief.

Is it just me, or is someone saying that the rogue and thief are two different classes? From what I've been seeing, they're the same class.

They are kind of the same class.

A Thief is a Rogue, but a Rogue is not necessarily a Thief; Thief is just the name given to the Essentials build of Rogue. They're different enough that they usually need to be given different names when discussing mechanics.

 

[ppaladin123]

It works with Knights and Slayers, as their Power Strike is an Attack Power, but not with Backstab, as it is a Utility.

But you can trade out the level 11 encounter power from your paragon path for a rogue encounter power. Perfectly legal.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Is it just me, or is someone saying that the rogue and thief are two different classes? From what I've been seeing, they're the same class.

The thief is basically an alternate subclass to the rogue.

The thief has great movement tricks, especially Tactical Trick, all of which it can use at will. (I suspect Ambush Trick is really good too; I've made an NPC with it to see how it works out.) As a result, the thief can get sneak attack more easily than the rogue, more than making up for the loss of 3.x's Tumble skill.

On the other hand, the thief (like most Essentials classes) is a lot less flexible (except in its one great area, the movement tricks). Your backstab ability does extra damage. That's great, but I don't see it stacking up to injure and blind everyone in an AoE. (If you hate keeping track of dailies then...)

I'm not a huge fan of Essentials, but the thief is possibly the best-designed class in there.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

The thief has great movement tricks, especially Tactical Trick, all of which it can use at will. (I suspect Ambush Trick is really good too; I've made an NPC with it to see how it works out.)

Ambush Trick is good in isolation, but you can get the same effect by taking Tactical Trick and the feat Cunning Stalker. (That is, for every case where Ambush Trick could give you CA, you get it for free from Cunning Stalker, or can get it by using Tactical Trick instead. This assumes that Cunning Stalker works when the Thief is not actually adjacent to the target; the wording is ambiguous on this issue.)

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Two of my favorite things about the Thief:

- an extra trained skill

- no need for a specific secondary ability score. This allows you to start with pre-racial 18 Dexterity, and choose which other score(s) to bump.

 

[DracoSuave]

But you can trade out the level 11 encounter power from your paragon path for a rogue encounter power. Perfectly legal.

So long as you don't take the Master Thief PP... as it has no 11 encounter power to trade.

Bear in mind, doing this will cause you to lose out on Shadow Striker and Thief's Advantage, both of which are phenoms.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

So long as you don't take the Master Thief PP... as it has no 11 encounter power to trade.

Bear in mind, doing this will cause you to lose out on Shadow Striker and Thief's Advantage, both of which are phenoms.

Shadow Striker is definitely amazing if you find ways to get hidden to start it rolling, but I'd say Thief's Advantage is more in the category of "very good" -- it's an average of +2.5 damage at Epic.

 

[Mengu]

Thieves are very easy to optimize for damage, easy to play, easy to do very consistent damage. They have fun movement tricks, and get more and more of them as they level up. With a speed 9 or 10 elf, walls are your highways with Acrobat's Trick. Also thieves make fantastic charger builds these days.

Rogue's are a bit harder to build, harder to play, but extremely rewarding if you know how to use your party. Versatility is their strength, and at high levels they can pull off mean novas, and can contribute substantially to party nova rounds.

I don't particularly like martial e-classes, but if I had to play one, it would be the Thief.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

But you can trade out the level 11 encounter power from your paragon path for a rogue encounter power. Perfectly legal.

I think the retraining rules specify that you can't retrain your paragon path powers. I don't have the books with me to double check this but I vaguely remember wanting to do that but learned that I couldn't.