why play rogue/thief?

[Jack99]

I think the retraining rules specify that you can't retrain your paragon path powers. I don't have the books with me to double check this but I vaguely remember wanting to do that but learned that I couldn't.

Correct

 

[Lord Ernie]

I think the retraining rules specify that you can't retrain your paragon path powers. I don't have the books with me to double check this but I vaguely remember wanting to do that but learned that I couldn't.

That is correct. However, Reserve Maneuver is not retraining, and as worded, it works perfectly fine for a PP power.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Ah, good call. I didn't even pay attention to the mention of Reserve Maneuver in the earlier post!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Really I find that the most salient aspect of the thief is just incredible, almost ridiculous, accuracy. Rogues were already accurate, but this guy just about never misses unless the opponent has some really serious defenses etc.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I noticed on the rogue I played at heroic that I really almost always used my Piercing Strike, and the extra [W] from encounter powers really was kind of lame compared to the near-auto-hit I got with a Sneak Attacked Piercing Strike.

So, the thief is pretty much an evolution of that. It's for the person who wants to just stab something and not worry about flinging them around the battlefield or slinging a cloud of daggers at a bunch of minions. I suspect at higher levels it'd run out of steam, but for most of its design life it should work quite nicely.

Brad

 

[Droogie128]

Thieves are very easy to optimize for damage, easy to play, easy to do very consistent damage. They have fun movement tricks, and get more and more of them as they level up. With a speed 9 or 10 elf, walls are your highways with Acrobat's Trick. Also thieves make fantastic charger builds these days.

Rogue's are a bit harder to build, harder to play, but extremely rewarding if you know how to use your party. Versatility is their strength, and at high levels they can pull off mean novas, and can contribute substantially to party nova rounds.

I don't particularly like martial e-classes, but if I had to play one, it would be the Thief.

That's basically how I feel about the scout. A scout with fighter mc and the shock trooper PP is about as potent as a e-striker gets. Trade out the pp power for ruffling sting... and it gets real nice.

 

[Dan'L]

That is correct. However, Reserve Maneuver is not retraining, and as worded, it works perfectly fine for a PP power.

Has there been an official ruling that makes this so? Because, as written, Reserve Maneuver lets you swap out a power from your class, but not your paragon path.

Last I looked (which was just now) your Paragon Path is not your class, and is defined in distinction to your class. Just because a class is a pre-req for a paragon path does not make everything from that paragon path qualify as being from a class.

-Dan'L

 

[gjnave]

My wife is now playing a level 1 thief - in her first battle she used all her powers and whacked a tiefling wizard for over 26HP.

As someone previously in this thread mentioned, even at level 1 she is pounding out more damage than our level 1 Cavalier. This is due to the fact that she can get CA near every turn, and use her sneak attack (which she put up to a D8 instead of the normal 6). Crazy!

The "Escape Artists Trick" (shift 2 squares --- do whatever --- shift 2 squares) also makes the thief down-right fun to play with (and deadly). I strongly feel that the thief (and its power choices) is a great roleplaying character and is more true to its class than the rogue was.

IMO, having DM'd my wifes Rogue for near a year, and now her thief... I would choose the thief anyday.

 

[Mapache]

Has there been an official ruling that makes this so? Because, as written, Reserve Maneuver lets you swap out a power from your class, but not your paragon path.

Not quite, Reserve Maneuver only lets you swap for a power from your class, but has no restrictions on the power you're swapping out apart from being an encounter attack power (so you can swap out a Paragon Path or Theme encounter attack power).

Reserve Maneuver
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level
Benefit: Choose an encounter attack power from your class. The power must be your level or lower and one that you don’t already have. When you regain the use of your powers at the end of any rest, you can gain the use of the chosen power instead of regaining the use of an encounter attack power of the same level or higher.
Special: Each time you gain a level, you can exchange the power you chose for this feat for another encounter attack power from your class. The power must be your level or lower and one that you don’t already have.

 

[bganon]

A level 13 thief can easily achieve a +25 vs AC attack (+5 Dex, +6 level, +3 prof, +3 enh, +2 expertise, +1 Talent, +2 CA, +3 backstab) that deals 6d6+17 (1d6 shortsword + 2d6 SA + 3d6 backstab + 3 finesse + 5 Dex + 3 enh + 2 expertise + 4 acrobat's trick) on a hit. That attack bonus should hit many level 13 monsters on a roll of 2 or more, for an average of 36.1 DPR.

This is far from enough to get to the top of the "Kings of DPR" list, but it's enough to place, especially if you ignore builds that rely on FrostCheese or Hybridizing for Twin Strike (which is a lot of them). And I haven't even included some obvious optimizations.

Oh, and the Thief can do this four times each encounter. Martial Essentials builds tend to trade their nova potential for consistency.

The Thief might have many downsides, but lack of damage isn't one of them.