Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[wildstarsreach]

Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?

So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...

And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability. Augmentation does not cover this aspect.

But it is equivalent in that most powers allow augmentation and have DC increased. Yes spell turning and Glode of invulnerability are problems but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[Tsuul]

The number of powers that can be DC pumped is probably about half of the powers that have saves, not including powers that only affect objects.
The psion should get something considering the loss of spell power when compared to a wizard or sorcerer. Augments fill that in nicely.
Just using the class tables (not including bonus spells or PPs based on ability scores) the psion gets 343 points of powers*
Wizards get 564*.
Sorcerers get 726*.

* This is a breakdown of spells into equivalent PPs and uses the Single target Max Damage cap found in the DMG for a 20th level caster. Example, a second level wizard spell costs 3 PPs to cast, and has free damage scaling up to 10 dice (+7pp for free) for a total of 10 points. Note, my math skills are horrid, so while I hope these numbers are correct, they should certainly be close.


When compaired to a wizard a sorcerer gives up infinite spells known, 4 bonus feats, (a free)scribe scroll, and a level lag in learning the next level of spells ---for--- 162 spell points worth of spells and spontanious casting.

When compaired to a wizard a psion gives up infinite spells known, and 221 spell points worth of powers ---for--- spontanious casting, augmentable powers, and a discipline.

When compaired to a sorcerer, a psion has gives up 383 spellpoints, and a familiar ---for--- 4 bonus feats, augmentable powers, a discipline, and no lag in spell/power level



edit: fixed bad math.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The number of powers that can be DC pumped is probably about half of the powers that have saves, not including powers that only affect objects.
The psion should get something considering the loss of spell power when compared to a wizard or sorcerer. Augments fill that in nicely.
Just using the class tables (not including bonus spells or PPs based on ability scores) the psion gets 343 points of powers*
Wizards get 564*.
Sorcerers get 726*.

* This is a breakdown of spells into equivalent PPs and uses the Single target Max Damage cap found in the DMG for a 20th level caster. Example, a second level wizard spell costs 3 PPs to cast, and has free damage scaling up to 10 dice (+7pp for free) for a total of 10 points. Note, my math skills are horrid, so while I hope these numbers are correct, they should certainly be close.


When compaired to a wizard a sorcerer gives up infinite spells known, 4 bonus feats, (a free)scribe scroll, and a level lag in learning the next level of spells ---for--- 162 spell points worth of spells and spontanious casting.

When compaired to a wizard a psion gives up infinite spells known, and 221 spell points worth of powers ---for--- spontanious casting, augmentable powers, and a discipline.

When compaired to a sorcerer, a psion has gives up 383 spellpoints, and a familiar ---for--- 4 bonus feats, augmentable powers, a discipline, and no lag in spell/power level



edit: fixed bad math.

Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get. He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone. He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.

Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with. No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.

I will admit that at the upper end of level 1-20, the Sorcerer and Wizard begin to come back to a more level playing field. From 6th to 16th is where my I've seen my character out shining some of our party.

At our last game in which we had 3 encounters, the wizard was comparable. But that was 2 encounters less than my character had. We were both spent after 3(Wizard) or 5(Cerebremancer) encounters. Our wizard wasn't there for the previous week with the other 2 encounters.

Now, I'll admit that I haven't played a Sorcerer. I've considered it due to this list, it is on my choice of future characters.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?

So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...

And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability. Augmentation does not cover this aspect.

Where in the complete psionic is it?

 

[Zimbel16]

Overpowered

Nobody even came close to saying that the wizard was overpowered despite what he was clearly, and legally, capable of doing.

...

Now look at what happens when people post similar things about psions. The instant reply is 'psionics are overpowered, and therefore must be banned/nerfed'.

Interesting; my opinion is that both classes (as well as the Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric) are overpowered in comparison to front-liners at high levels. Unfortunately, (other than avoiding high levels), a good fix is non-trivial. Going to, say, Arcana Evolved rules merely changes the names and pushes off the major problems by a few levels.

 

[Zimbel16]

Here's some suggestions that I would make.

Energy powers get one type of energy at start. Knowledge skill of arcana required to gain additional types. A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in the skill including all bonuses. Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken.

Energy adaptation, 4th level, will only resist one type of energy unless augmented. For each 2 PP's, and additional type of energy is protected against.

Temporal acceleration, augment to be changed to 8 PP for an extra round. This power would not give 2 extra rounds until 19th level. At 19th level you would get 3 extra rounds. Slows down extra attacks.

Just my thoughts for now

I like your ideas, although I'd go for Knowledgesionics for the Energy powers idea (unless you consider both skills the same for magic/psionics transparency).

 

[Thanee]

Nobody even came close to saying that the wizard was overpowered despite what he was clearly, and legally, capable of doing.

Makes sense. While the wizard is extremely powerful at high levels already (most classes are, but spellcasters surely get ahead of everyone else at some point, psionic-users go even farther), you need to exploit broken rules to get there. The psion, however, is broken by default, because the basic psion rules are broken already. That's the big difference.

Nova whatever doesn't mean anything to a normal game.

How a class behaves in a normal situation does.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KuKu]

Maybe we could see a breakdown of...

- Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting);
- Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Points of HP damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Number of save-or-die effects that can be done each day, at high DC, and at moderate DC;
- Available utility effects.

What do you think of that as an objective measure?

Cheers, -- N

Works for me, Nifft.

One thing wed want to nail down early on is what exact books are allowed. While its certainly advantage:Mage the more we restrict it, if we dont, the outcome is going to be some nutso creation that would never appear in a game.

I personally suggest core+complete.

Potential Extra Categories:
Party Buffing
Dealing with Spell-Resistant Baddies (Undead, Golems, high-SR Crowd)
Mobility

All performances must also be judged by a single character.

What happened to this plan? This sounds great! Verifiable points which can be debated rationally instead of a few posters less than helpful "it is just better because I say so". In my experience psionics is hands-down more balanced than the very unbalanced vancian system. The vancian system is just a mess. I think that arguements should be made based on these two posters suggestions though as they make for a much much much much much better structure.

 

[Taraxia]

Looking through the powers, I found one setback. All the powers that are direct affecting have to go against PR. Those that do not are durational enhancements such as claws or weapons. There is crystal shard which is not subject to PR.

Now, my DM does make it harder, he uses the magic transparency but if a spell reduces the SR, it doesn't reduce the PR. If a creature has SR, then it has equal PR.

Er, you misunderstand transparency. Transparency means that SR *is* PR. They're two words for the same effect, because magic and psionics are the same kind of "energy", so being able to unilaterally "resist" that kind of energy works on both types of uses of that energy.

Taking down SR is the same thing as taking down PR, and vice versa. It's just like how something that blocks Detect Magic also blocks Detect Psionics, or how something that works in an Antimagic Field also works in an Antipsionic Field (or vice versa).

 

[Taraxia]

Makes sense. While the wizard is extremely powerful at high levels already (most classes are, but spellcasters surely get ahead of everyone else at some point, psionic-users go even farther), you need to exploit broken rules to get there. The psion, however, is broken by default, because the basic psion rules are broken already. That's the big difference.

Nova whatever doesn't mean anything to a normal game.

How a class behaves in a normal situation does.

Bye
Thanee

If you're going to define all the ways a wizard can scale up his power by using metamagic and so on as "broken", sure. The psion was written with the assumption in mind that wizards would, in fact, use the options given to them that they are supposed to use.

Of *course* a character who's not locked into an extremely rigid paradigm of what 1st-level spells vs. 9th-level spells can do solely based on spell level will be broken next to someone who is locked-in that way. But no class was actually written to have that degree of lock-in -- it makes them boring and hard to play.