Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Frylock]

Ignore this. Accidental duplicate post. I suck.

 

[Frylock]

Math

I've heard math is a key ingredient to physics. Why don't you help us do the math? Cheers,

Dude, I graduated in 1992. I'm lucky I can still add.

 

[Frylock]

Bad Power Cop

Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence.
I deny your anecdotes, and substitute my own!

-aside to Tikiman- I've been playing Good Cop. This one seems to require Bad Cop, you want it?

Uh-oh. A threat of bad cop? It looks like I offended a power gamer.

 

[Tikiman]

-aside to Tikiman- I've been playing Good Cop. This one seems to require Bad Cop, you want it?

Mwa ha ha ha. Actually, I already know what this guy's problem is, and the solution has been posted on this forum ad nausium.

That is, I've never seen a psionicist run out of power points.

This is your entire problem, top to bottom, front to back, inside and out. This is either the DM's fault, or it's the Player's fault. Most likely your DM simply isn't throwing the DMG recommended 3-4 encounters at you per day. This is a very common occurrence. Now it's not your DM's fault if he doesn't have the ability to put 3-4 in, but it's also not Psionics fault that the game designers built it on a multiple encounter per day system. Arcane and Divine magic have the same problem, psionics just does it better.

The solution I would suggest is to limit the Psion to 20% of his total PP pool per encounter, adding 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party (so party level 3 + CR 5 = 40%, roughly 7pp). That way your psions ALWAYS run out of PP in an encounter. That running out is what keeps the psionics system in check. Your DM can just write the % (or # of PP) on a scrap of paper and hand it to the psion at the start of a fight, or whenever the situation needs adjusting (extra mobs show up, the group thief turns on you, etc).

Arcane/Divine casters should be limited in a similar way. For every 20% let them use 1 spell of their highest 2 levels, and 2 spells of the next two highest levels. If you have an odd % (like 30%) give them an additional spell at their second and fourth highest slot. So a level 10 mage in a CR 11 encounter (30%) would get 1 level 5 spell, 2 level 4 spells, 2 level 3 spells, and 3 level 2 spells. He could use as many 1st and 0th as he wanted. (note that this is a rough rule of thumb system, feel free to experiment with it).

If your DM tries to give you 3-4 encounters, but your party doesn't let him (they run away/rope trick/etc) then the fault rests with the players. I can't really help you with that, nor will any amount of fixing the rules help with that (they'll simply move to something else that's overpowered, and anything in D&D can be made overpowered, even bards). I'd suggest telling your DM to flex his [evil] side and do things you just can't get away from (like ambushing you, locking the door behind you, nobody will deal with you cuz you're cowards, etc). Basically, if the players won't take the offensive and instead pick away encounter by encounter, then the mobs need to take the offensive and hunt the players down.

Also, for those who think that people gravitate towards psionics because it's powerful, have you ever taken a look at the druid or the cleric? I don't think I've met anyone who doesn't think these are clearly the two most powerful classes in the game (psion and wizard sometimes tie, but practically never exceed them). Have you ever seen 5 bears (maximized[rod] summons) with Animal Growth cast on them? And the Druid shifts into an Animal Growthed form as well? If you haven't, you've never actually seen overpowered. Despite this, not every powergamer plays these classes. Oh, and if you don't think Druids are the king of the crop, I suggest this poll, or visiting the WotC Character Optimization board (where they try to find every way possible to break the system). The CO boards regularly play with clerics, druids, wizards, etc, but normally don't toy with psion or sorcerer. Maybe these two classes are just too much for the people who invented the infinite everything Pun-Pun.

Oh, and any 'balance' debate past level 15 is just plain retarded. All casters, psion included, are capable of doing ridiculously stupid stuff at those levels. Trying to balance D&D past level 15 is like trying to fit an entire kindergarten class into a phone booth. It's just a bloody mess.

Uh-oh. A threat of bad cop? It looks like I offended a power gamer.

Min/maxer actually. I like being given very little to work with and do my best with it (favorite class: PsiWar). I regularly play core-only characters in campaigns that allow non-core material. My goal in every campaign is to be the most powerful character, but only by a little bit. I have yet to have any DM complain about my power level. In fact, any group that knows me will sick me on powergamers. This is why I'm the 'bad-cop'; I have no problem telling people what their actual problem is. I've had enough experience in life to realize that I am in fact better at spotting problems then the average joe, so I get blunt about it. In exchange for this ability I simply can't do anything with horror. To me horror is just, well, silly.

 

[Bacris]

The problem appears to be (IMHO) that a psionicist is able to increase his "spell slot" without any real consequences. That is, I've never seen a psionicist run out of power points. Although they always complain about not having enough, when they're complaining, they're at about 50% max, which to a power gamer is a horrifying thought. If a psionicist is constantly augmenting but the extra cost doesn't have the consequence of taking him out of future encounters (or skill checks, etc.), then the system is broken. Can anyone (other than a power gamer that thinks 50% PP = 0 PP) really say that this hasn't been their experience with psionics?

That's funny, I've played 4 psionic characters across 3 different DM's, from level 1 to level 26 (yes, 26). I've always had problems keeping enough power points, and my group always managed to stay relatively close in powerscale, and that's including a pure fighter, paladin, and a bard... Now, given that this is with 3 DIFFERENT DM's, I have to say that either I've been very lucky with DMs (possible), or your just have a crappy DM when it comes to handling psionics (also possible).

So I disagree with your "psionics is broken, that's a fact" and say that it's very much dependent on player, DM, and group.

 

[Tikiman]

The other reason I'm the 'bad cop' is that I'm an 'implacable foe'. I like to address each and every point raised by someone, in detail, and I won't let anything slide. People often get mad when I read what they wrote better then they did. Why do I do this? Because I'm a teacher and I like giving other people grades. So excuse me while I enjoy myself at your expense.

Psionics are broken. Anyone who claims not to see that has his head in the sand.

Broken compared to what? Compared to a fighter? Oh heck yeah. Lots of things are broken compared to them, psions included. Broken compared to a wizard is the usual debate though, and that's a bigger problem. I can provide a wizard build that can do 73k damage in a single round (or 2k damage as a swift action). Can you make a psion do that?

Does that mean that all wizards are broken? No, it just means that with sufficient non-core material you can make stuff that can blow up the planet (oddly enough, fighters were the first to achieve this with the Hulking Hurler). It also means that there are broken abilities out there. Avoid the broken abilities (like Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop) and you'll avoid broken characters. I find it rather stupid that people think they should be able to do anything they want with the rules and then blame the game designers for not providing them with a perfect system that meets their exact needs. Powergamers are going to make broken stuff. That's why we call them powergamers.

You can throw out any "logical" and mathematical arguments as to why psionics is balanced, but when there's a psionicist at the table, he's doing more damage and than even the warmage (see my home game for an example)

So, let me get this right. Personal anecdotal evidence outweighs logical debate? Anyone who says that is stupid and has their head in the sand.

More importantly though, the psion is capable of outdoing the warmage on a per round damage scale (blasting is something psions do better, but they give up say Illusion for it). But in a per day scale he gets left in the dust. Again, it's not the psions fault he was balanced on a 4/day system, it's your DM's fault for not following the guidelines in the DMG. One encounter per day is a 'house rule', and a pretty lame one at that. Its almost as bad as only throwing a single monster at the players in an encounter. 4 actions/round trumps 1 action/round hardcore.

and his Call to Mind (XPH, page 82) makes him just as valuable outside combat.

Wow, knowledge checks are the only thing useful outside of combat? I guess wizards can stop memorizing Invisibility (the psionic version blows, single target will save system), Fly (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Summons (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Teleport (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Charm (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Polymorph (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Scrying (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Fabricate (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Detect Thoughts (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), and other such useless abilities. I wonder why I even wanted those pointless spells in the first place.


@ Bacris: I'm not posting on the WotC forums cuz I currently hate them (Complete Psionics), but I'd like to say I love Untapped Potential. I paid $5 for a copy and am loving the Half-Giant material, the Phenotype Impressionist, and the Psicrystal Binder. One of my friends loves the Society Mind. Keep up the good work.

Oh, and if I've got the wrong Bacris, just ignore this.

 

[Bacris]

@ Bacris: I'm not posting on the WotC forums cuz I currently hate them (Complete Psionics), but I'd like to say I love Untapped Potential. I paid $5 for a copy and am loving the Half-Giant material, the Phenotype Impressionist, and the Psicrystal Binder. One of my friends loves the Society Mind. Keep up the good work.

Oh, and if I've got the wrong Bacris, just ignore this.

Same Bacris And glad to hear it!

You are aware that Untapped Potential is essentially "The Real Complete Psionic", right? We're hoping to increase the number of PrC's in the final version by 1 or 2 and I'm also currently working on playing a Psicrystal Imprinter myself (only level 4, so almost there)... it and the Enlightened PrCs are my favorites. And the Energist

 

[Frylock]

Thanks for your response. However, I said you had your head in the sand, whereas you said I have my head in the sand *and* am stupid. Technically, you've started a fight, so I must respond.

I hate you.

Moving on . . .

Most likely your DM simply isn't throwing the DMG recommended 3-4 encounters at you per day. This is a very common occurrence. . . . Arcane and Divine magic have the same problem, psionics just does it better. [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

This is a good point, and its been raised to me by one of my players as a possible solution. I'm building the next session around the premise that the psionsist will run out of PP if I do this. If it doesn't work, I'll be back.

The solution I would suggest is to limit the Psion to 20% of his total PP pool per encounter, adding 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party (so party level 3 + CR 5 = 40%, roughly 7pp). [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

This I don't like. It just rubs me the wrong way. I'd rather that my encounters as a whole wear them down. In any case, I wouldn't add a rule like this mid-campaign, so for now it isn't an option anyway. (I'm not trying to discourage suggestions, though.)

If your DM tries to give you 3-4 encounters, but your party doesn't let him (they run away/rope trick/etc) then the fault rests with the players. I can't really help you with that . . . . [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

I can help myself with that. When they come out of the rope trick, they'll be a spellwarped, advanced 36 HD dire bear waiting for them. If they go back in, there'll be two of them waiting for them when they come out.

anything in D&D can be made overpowered, even bards [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

Now who looks stupid?

I'd suggest telling your DM to flex his [evil] side [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

I am the DM, and I don't have a good side.

Then the mobs need to take the offensive and hunt the players down. [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

Got it.

have you ever taken a look at the druid or the cleric? Oh, and any 'balance' debate past level 15 is just plain retarded. [\QUOTE=Tikiman]

I didn't make the latter argument, but I chose to take offense anyway. I loathe you.

Moving along . . . .

D&D doesn't really work beyond 15th level, as the caster-types become too powerful relative to the fighters. Because of that, someone's going to be the most powerful, and it tends to be the cleric or druid. However, the psions are so much more powerful than clerics/druids at that level, *and* the problem with psions occurs well before 15th level. In fact, in my campaign (first time DM'ing psionic characters), one of the melee characters just hit 15th level last week, but this problem has existed well before that.

In short, I don't think you've provided a solution to the problem. Right now, the entire party feels useless relative to the psionicists. If I throw out more unavoidable encounters, eventually the psionicists will run out of PP, but the warmage and (to a lesser extent) the cleric will feel useless becuase they'll run out of spells long before the psionicists run out of PP. I'm still tweaking the campaign, and the spellwarped template has helped, but I need to bring the psionicists closer to everyone else. Right now, they blow away everything.

One last point: one piece of anecdotal evidence by itself doesn't make a scientific study, but it has two advantages over a theory: 1) it's based in reality, and 2) it has plenty of company (i.e., there's a lot more than one piece of said evidence floating around).

Thanks.

 

[Tsuul]

Frylock, if Call to Mind is coming up as a power house of a power then perhaps a second reading is in order. All it does is help A.D.D. players remember things the DM has already told them. Or if the DM knows the player has the power, he can use it to reveal clues later in a session that would otherwise tip the player off too early if the DM actualy mentions them in real time.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Frylock... while I'm feeding you to the not nice poster (me, myself, being the nice guy)... im curious about a few things..

1.) Whose tracking that Psions PSPs? If hes fully augmenting every round, and the Warmage is casting every round, and the Warmage runs out of spells before the Psion runs out of PsPs (assuming both same level, same gear, blah blah freakin blah)... well, I dont buy it.
Now, if the Psion isnt full manifesting every round, but is instead throwing a bunch of lower cost powers to preserve PsPs... then theres no reason for his impact to be so much higher.

I suspect we have a situation not unlike the OPs, where we have a well built psion and the 'skill focus-basketweaving' rest of the party.

2.) "The Psions are so much more powerful than clerics/druids at that level"

I am... wow. Just wow. With a side of 'Your kidding, right?'
In the war between 15d6 Energy Rays and a Crash (that is to my recollection the technical term) of Animal Growthed Dire Bears... including the Animal Companion and the Druid herself for kicks...

You know that whole stupid civil war sig thing? Well, in this Civil War, I'm with the Crash of Freaking Buffed Dire Bears. They said theyd come get me if I wasnt. And I'll run out of PSPs long before the Druid runs out of bears

3.) As regards anecdotal evidence.. true, its grounded in experiment. I know.. lets get a group of the best number-crunchers in the history of D+D together, and tell them, with their knowledge of the system, to break it, and boil down what they consider the best-worst parts of D+D, as far as impact-to-effort. The folks who have no higher alliegance than to sheer IC power, and who consider Anthropomorphic Baleen Hulking Hurlers and Hydra-Dervishes multiattacking with Mouthpick Scimitars to be nothing more than tools to the end of breaking the game.
And lets give them all the books in the game to break, and see what they come up with, see what their best toys are, and what their basic appraisal of how-to-win-at-D+D is.

That sounds like a great experiment. Shall we run it, and see whether our observations tend to support or disprove the "Psionics-is-broken" hypothesis?