Why Put magic Items in The PHB?

[TwinBahamut]

I agree that identifying items is essentially a rule that gives both players and DMs too much work for too little fun. This is especially true with the relatively high cost of the Identify spell, and the complete lack of any other way to identify items. I never understood why a simple Appraise check couldn't identify an item, anyways. I mean, if you find a magic axe in the depths of some ancient dwarven tomb, shouldn't someone with enough ranks in some skill be able to identify it as the famous axe used by such-and-such dwarven hero in ages long past?

Regardless, I agree that magic items belong in the PHB. They are as much a part of a PCs abilities as Racial Abilties, Class Features, Feats, and Spells, and there is a real need for players to look them up often (especially with the limted space to write down item properties on a standard character sheet).

I never understood the "Player/DM knowledge gap" idea anyways, since that assumes an absolute unbreakable distinction between people who are D&D players and D&D DMs, which is simply not the case.

 

[Green Knight]

I hope this is true. It'd be nice to FINALLY be free of having to carry the DMG around along with the PHB. Seriously, it's the Dungeon Master's Guide. I bet if you took a poll, you'd find that most players, even those who've never DMed and never will, own a copy of the DMG, and make sure to lug it to the game with them along with the PHB and whatever other books they need. Why? For the magic items chapter.

 

[Nifft]

All the other shopping lists are in the PHB.

-- N

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

(snip) I mean, if you find a magic axe in the depths of some ancient dwarven tomb, shouldn't someone with enough ranks in some skill be able to identify it as the famous axe used by such-and-such dwarven hero in ages long past? (snip)

That'd be Bardic Knowledge, right? Hmm. We may have a problem, here.

Alternately, we could do like Baldur's Gate and give Bardic Knowledge %s to every class, with Bards getting the highest progression.

 

[TwinBahamut]

That'd be Bardic Knowledge, right? Hmm. We may have a problem, here.

Alternately, we could do like Baldur's Gate and give Bardic Knowledge %s to every class, with Bards getting the highest progression.

Ugh... I dislike Bardic knowledge pretty fiercely. It is a wierd catch-all that makes a large number of skills completely redundant and useless, since its limits are so poorly defined. I would prefer to see it removed completely, rather than it given to every character.

What I described should fall under either Knowledge: History (knowing the story of the dwarven hero), or Appraise (being able to identify the particular physical properties of the axe). There is no need to use Bardic Knowledge.

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

Allow me to clarify: I meant using a number for the specific purpose of recalling history and properties of magic items found, rather than the more catch-all Bardic class ability, although it is the facet of that ability that sees something like 85% of the use in the campaigns I play on and run.

 

[MarkB]

I just realized the other day that my Midwood group is carrying around magic items from two or three adventures ago and still haven't been able to identify them. I really need to revise how detect magic works, if 4E doesn't do it for me. (Of course, it doesn't help that one group has almost no Spellcraft between all the characters.)

There's a cheapo magic item in the MIC called an artificer's monocle that lets you burn detect magics into it to identify items, if you're interested in a stopgap solution.

MIC also has simple rules for partial or complete identification of magic items via Detect Magic, Spellcraft, Knowledge skills, UMD and Bardic Knowledge, on page 217. They may be what you're looking for (though I, too, tend to just stick an Artificer's Monocle in one of the early loot drops of a campaign these days).

 

[Delta]

Hrmmm that I can understand to a degree... Though in that case, I think I'd rather see a monsters and treasures book... But then I guess monster books never really had treasure in them...

- OD&D Volume 2 was titled "Monsters & Treasure": http://acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html

- In the OD&D/Basic transition era there were a series of supplements called "Monster & Treasure Assortments": http://acaeum.com/ddindexes/miscpages/mt.html

 

[Felon]

Why?

In most games I've run, when I give out an item the player has to figure out what it is... If they do so through magic means, I give them the powers and the write it down.. Occasionally if there's a dispute we'll look it up, but since the DM is the arbiter of the rules, shouldn't it be in his book?

And a week or two later the player has look it up again because he probably just jotted down shorthand onto his character sheet, not the verbatum description. Putting it where the player has ready access makes a lot more sense.

But again from a rules perspective, if the players no longer "need" magic items, why is it in their book? It would be like putting the random treasure tables in there as well...

You're reading a lot into the notion of characters not "needing" magic items. Characters currently need some of the things magic items provide. Warriors need weapons that penetrate DR, mages need wands that provide extra spells per day, and a good chunk of every character's will stem from AC bonuses at higher levels. Chipping away at specific dependencies doesn't render magic items moot. Hopefully, they can serve as flexible, upgradable resource for customizing characters rather than something they must buy in order to keep up.

 

[Scribble]

Hopefully, they can serve as flexible, upgradable resource for customizing characters rather than something they must buy in order to keep up.

That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out in this post.

It's not intended to be a grognardy "whatcha doin to my game an get off me lawn!" post.

I'm trying to infer what they are attempting to do by putting the magic items into the PHB. I'm guessing they're in the PHB because of a significant change in the design of how they work/interact with the game.