Why Put magic Items in The PHB?

[mmadsen]

What's with all this "players shouldn't have information also magic items and spells should be spooky and mysterious and only the guy on the lonely side of the screen gets to know what they do" talk?

Spells, magic items, and monsters are all a bit like Christmas presents under the tree. We want to know what they are, what's inside, but not knowing is actually most of the fun.

As we codify more and more of the game into formal rules, and we share those rules with players, we gain some things, and we lose some things. That sense of wonder and of discovery is a huge portion of the game as we used to play it.

The goal should be to get the best of both worlds, by providing clear rules for a reasonable number of core spells, magic items, and monsters, while leaving the DM with plenty of room to surprise the players.

Heck, in my group we don't even bother with the whole identifying items process. It's time consuming, requires an inordinate amount of paper work, and just wastes time.

That is certainly often the case. Not all mysteries are equally interesting.

 

[Nifft]

Brainstorm on Bardic Knowledge:

- Use the SW Saga rule that all skills gain +1/2 your character level; then
- Bardic Knowledge gives all your Knowledge skills an additional +1 per 4 levels of Bard. So you are effectively Trained (or Focused if already Trained) in all Knowledge skills by level 20.

Cheers, -- N

 

[mmadsen]

If we were to model the game on Tolkien's Middle Earth, then anyone high-level would have the equivalent of Bardic Knowledge to some degree, and that makes some sense, because it's just knowledge of all the things that interest adventurers.

I would prefer to make it an ordinary skill though, say, Recall Lore, and allow it to subsume most Knowledge skills used in the game.

 

[Felon]

That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out in this post.

It's not intended to be a grognardy "whatcha doin to my game an get off me lawn!" post.

I'm trying to infer what they are attempting to do by putting the magic items into the PHB. I'm guessing they're in the PHB because of a significant change in the design of how they work/interact with the game.

I think they just realize that characters need to be able to factor in magic items to their builds.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Some magic items - artefacts, which are beyond price - will still need to be in the DMG.

 

[MarkB]

That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out in this post.

It's not intended to be a grognardy "whatcha doin to my game an get off me lawn!" post.

I'm trying to infer what they are attempting to do by putting the magic items into the PHB. I'm guessing they're in the PHB because of a significant change in the design of how they work/interact with the game.

I think it's simply a delayed realisation of a change that happened all the way back at the start of 3.0. Magic items have been more a player resource than a DM resource for years now - this move simply acknowledges that.

 

[(contact)]

If there are magic items in the Player's Handbook, I will not use any of them in my campaigns as DM (outside of the low-level +1 arms and armors, etc.).

If creating magic items is a class ability in 4e (like it is in 3e) would you let your PCs create the items in the PHB?

 

[Darkness]

Heck, in my group we don't even bother with the whole identifying items process. It's time consuming, requires an inordinate amount of paper work, and just wastes time. Below is a typical example of what our group went through before we changed the identification rules.

DM: You find a very ornate dagger amongst the coins in the iron shod chest.
PC: Cool. I cast Detect Magic. Does it radiate magic?
DM: Yes.

(several game sessions pass)

PC: Ok, the wizard cast Identify on this dagger. What's it do?
DM: Is that the dagger from the Sunless Citadel, the Forge of Fury, Nightfang Spire, or the Iron Fortress?
PC: Um... I don't know. It just says "dagger, radiates magic" next to it.
DM: *sigh*

Right, that's exactly why I've always taken steps to avoid this particular problem.

Me: You find a very ornate dagger amongst the coins in the iron shod chest.
[optional but likely]
Player: What does it look like?
Me: It has a green and golden blade and a snake-like hilt.
[/optional but likely]
Player: Cool. I cast Detect Magic. Does it radiate magic?
Me: Yes. You can simply write down 'magic dagger #34' in case you don't want to bother with the flavor text. Just note the number in any case so we can find it more easily later.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Thats not exactly what was said - the MONSTERS don't need magic items for the math to work. That tells us nothing about what PC's need.

Yes, they say that characters will not be magic item dependant to remain competitive at any level.

I'm so happy about this, not only because of the dripping like a Christmas tree scenario, but also because of all characters having an amulet of natural armour, ring of deflection and a cloak of resistance etc in order to keep their AC and saves respectable at higher levels.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Just because they dont need magic items as much as they used to, and wont be kitted out to the gills with them, doesnt mean they wont have ANY of them.

Keeping in mind that they've mentioned players can have them, that players can CREATE magic items without a feat, and that high level characters will likely be able to just have them to begin with, doesnt it make sense to just let them look through a list of common magic items? Is the 'Sense of Wonder' really going to be wrecked by letting them see the cost of a potion of cure light wounds or wand of magic missile?

Heck, in the CURRENT edition you can get the various Craft feats that let you create magic items, but all the prerequisite spells are listed in the DMG. Should a player really be forced to consult the DM's guide in order to figure out what they need to do?