Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Numion]

Beat me to it, but yep. That is generally what would happen. Couple generations down the road and hey look, your town now has a small half-orc demographic!

Why would any town want to assimilate evil orcs? And fat chance with those half-orcs if the orcs are female .. ain't that much booze in the world!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Why would any town want to assimilate evil orcs? And fat chance with those half-orcs if the orcs are female .. ain't that much booze in the world!

Right. The issue of the orcs being another species might have some bearing on what happens to them. Especially because they're not one of those "beautiful human female"-looking species that seem to be extremely common throughout the multiverse.

 

[Numion]

Right. The issue of the orcs being another species might have some bearing on what happens to them. Especially because they're not one of those "beautiful human female"-looking species that seem to be extremely common throughout the multiverse.

I think it's the deciding factor that they're another species. Not as assimiliable as humans from different parts of the world. As for the appearance of females - well, that's what all the fantasy art would have us believe.

 

[Vocenoctum]

It's really a tough situation. I think perhaps the best solution is to decimate the orcish warriors, but not wipe them out totally, and drive them to the point where they have to retreat or they'll be wiped out. Ideally, try to capture a shaman at some point in the conflict, and explain all that to him.

I couldn't see the orcs appreciating the "mercy" of wiping out 90% of them and sending the rest back to whatever hellhole they crawled out of. Either way the orcs will be a problem down the road too. If you're not redeeming them in any fashion, it's better to burn them to the God of Good.

As I mentioned though, we tend to avoid such moral quanderies in our games. You won't encounter orc warriors with a baggage train full of kids. I don't see how this scenario (orc kids) is in any way unique to Paladins though. A LG fighter should (in the same campaign) feel the same tug of concern, and the cleric of Ilmater would probably be horrified at leaving orc kids uncared for.

 

[delericho]

I couldn't see the orcs appreciating the "mercy" of wiping out 90% of them and sending the rest back to whatever hellhole they crawled out of.

Frankly, what the orcs think about it is irrelevant. What's important is that the paladin does the right thing. What's tricky is that the right thing isn't clear.

In a case like this, incidentally, I would let the player make almost any call he wanted, without the threat of a loss of paladin abilities.

Either way the orcs will be a problem down the road too. If you're not redeeming them in any fashion, it's better to burn them to the God of Good.

This is probably one of those situations where the actual best long-term solution is precisely as you suggested: wipe the tribe out. Leaving them to starve in the wilderness isn't exactly a good thing to do, and will lead to the children growing up evil and causing problems. Taking them as slaves just stores up the problem too, as you'll one day face them revolting against you.

Machiavelli's "The Prince" addressed issues very similar to this, and his advice was that although it was unpalatable, in the long term the solution that provides the greatest good for the greatest number is to exercise a degree of moral flexibility, and do the horrible.

However, that is simply not an option for paladins - since in the RAW orcs are not inherently evil, the paladin simply cannot murder defenseless orcish children just because he knows that they will cause problems at some future time.

As I mentioned though, we tend to avoid such moral quanderies in our games. You won't encounter orc warriors with a baggage train full of kids. I don't see how this scenario (orc kids) is in any way unique to Paladins though. A LG fighter should (in the same campaign) feel the same tug of concern, and the cleric of Ilmater would probably be horrified at leaving orc kids uncared for.

The problem is unique to paladins because for the other characters you mentioned it's a role-playing concern. For the paladin, it's a matter of losing his powers if he does the wrong thing.

My approach to it is rather different to yours: I am willing to place the PCs in the situation you described, because I am interested in tackling moral quandaries in-game. What I am not interested in doing is screwing over the players, even of paladins, so as I indicated above, I would essentially let the paladin make his decision without fear of loss of power.

 

[Sejs]

Why would any town want to assimilate evil orcs? And fat chance with those half-orcs if the orcs are female .. ain't that much booze in the world!

Cheap, solid labor and the ones you're assimilating arn't the ones that perpetuate the evil part of their culture for the most part.

Besides, instant niche market! Beauty salons for orcish women looking to land a husband? Talk about a goldmine!

 

[Kristivas]

I tried to make the example non-farfetched, but whats your opinion? What should've the Paladin do?

Dr Awkward and the others have answered pretty well.

I don't throw such moral conundrums into too many games either. Not every dungeon crawl is going to end with the group carrying out the children of those they've slain and carrying them off to the church or orphanage.

But there's no reason to leave it out entirely, either. So long as your games have a fair amount of role-playing beyond one dungeon crawl after another (which, there's nothing wrong with that). Such situations have produced some great gaming opportunities.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Frankly, what the orcs think about it is irrelevant. What's important is that the paladin does the right thing. What's tricky is that the right thing isn't clear.

In a case like this, incidentally, I would let the player make almost any call he wanted, without the threat of a loss of paladin abilities.

Right, I just meant their motivation as it applies to future problems from the orcs. Leaving 10% of them alive to run off with the kids won't be viewed as a good thing to that 10%, and will simply lead to future problems.

Maybe you could hire a wizard to polymorph them all into goldfish, and have the nicest pond in all the lands.

The problem is unique to paladins because for the other characters you mentioned it's a role-playing concern. For the paladin, it's a matter of losing his powers if he does the wrong thing.

My approach to it is rather different to yours: I am willing to place the PCs in the situation you described, because I am interested in tackling moral quandaries in-game. What I am not interested in doing is screwing over the players, even of paladins, so as I indicated above, I would essentially let the paladin make his decision without fear of loss of power.

It's still a moral quandery for other characters, it just doesn't carry mechanical disadvantages. As you say, you use the moral dillemas in your game and enjoy it, but you also mention removing the mechanical penalty for it. Either way, the paladin doesn't really occupy a special place within these situations, or at least not as much as threads like this usually potray it as.

If that makes sense.

Basically, moral quandries as part of roleplaying can be good for folks, but if using the mechanical penalties, you have to keep the player in mind. You've got to keep player enjoyment as part of the equation.

 

[Baron Opal]

How many people could honestly tell me that, in their games, it would be just fine for a paladin to gut a sleeping goblin-mother and walk off as the baby lays there crying, knowing that it's only fate is either to starve to death or be eaten by a wandering monster?

Sure. Not a problem. In fact, gutting the baby orc as well is not only prudent but encouraged as well. They are evil and irredeemable. Their infantile cries are a cruel mimicry designed to trick you in letting your guard down. Orcs know neither mercy or pity and do not deserve either.

Now, there are a couple of things that make this a touch more palatable IMC. Orcs, et.al., arise through spontaineous generation rather than sexual reproduction. Orcs facilitate this by excavating large pits that they fill with rotting meat, offal, clay and assorted filth and waste seeded with a couple of orc carcasses. Their young arise out of this mixture like maggots out of rotting meat. So, there really aren't any cute little green orc "babies". They are infantile in mind for the first year, and grow rapidly on a diet of meat. You don't wanna know what's swimming in the pit.

Other campaigns I have been in have shared this philosophy, although they didn't got to the same lengths I did to remove any traces of guilt from modern-minded players.

 

[delericho]

Right, I just meant their motivation as it applies to future problems from the orcs. Leaving 10% of them alive to run off with the kids won't be viewed as a good thing to that 10%, and will simply lead to future problems.

Yep. Very true.

It's still a moral quandery for other characters, it just doesn't carry mechanical disadvantages. As you say, you use the moral dillemas in your game and enjoy it, but you also mention removing the mechanical penalty for it. Either way, the paladin doesn't really occupy a special place within these situations, or at least not as much as threads like this usually potray it as.

If that makes sense.

Yep. I guess I've been lucky to have had players who handle these things well (at least for the last decade or so).

Basically, moral quandries as part of roleplaying can be good for folks, but if using the mechanical penalties, you have to keep the player in mind. You've got to keep player enjoyment as part of the equation.

Absolutely true.