Why Shouldn't I Ban "Come and Get It"?

[GoLu]

Would those rules include the rules for applying a "PC Template" to a monster or leveled NPC and picking "Come And Get It" as one of their powers?

If so, why not mark some powers in the PHB as "Not for use by NPCs, even those built with class templates"?

Your reply to every broken, or even questionable, rule seems to be "Well, don't do that!" I'd love to see you working a computer help desk.

"Your program crashes when I print my document."
"So, don't print your document. Next!"

The problem is one of personal preference. For some people, it just doesn't feel right to have a power like this used on their character. If you are gaming with those people and they have communicated that preference in an appropriate manner, it seems reasonable to respect their wishes or, at least, to work out a compromise of some sort.

Like if a player said, "I hate fighting mind flayers. Every time we do that, 2/3 of the party spends the next three hours stunned. What should be a horrible encounter with terrible foes is actually just a boring interlude in which we play Mario Kart instead of gaming." As a DM, you can find alternative encounters that are fun for your players and still just as difficult as those pesky mind flayers.

So it's more like:

"Your program is hard to read when I set the color scheme to light yellow text on a white background."
"So, choose contrasting colors. Next!"

 

[Obryn]

Why would the drow rogue leave her position of concealment where she can shoot the fighter very effectively? Ok, maybe the goad, etc., but shouldn't this at least have some kind of attack or save?

If her concealment is total, the fighter can't affect her.

Sidonunspa's examples are mostly (it seems to me) minion types with which I don't have a huge problem regarding the exploit. My problem is the fighter gets close to Sauron and "makes" Sauron go for him instead of going for Frodo. I might even be ok with this if Sauron got some kind of save or Sauron's Will had to be "hit".

Well, there is that. In play, though, it's kind of fun - the players get to force the enemies to play their game, rather than the other way around.

Also, I completely disagree with Hong regarding enemies using powers like this. Yep, it takes control out of the players' hands briefly, but it's hardly the worst thing that can happen to them.

-O

 

[drachasor]

Sidonunspa's examples are mostly (it seems to me) minion types with which I don't have a huge problem regarding the exploit. My problem is the fighter gets close to Sauron and "makes" Sauron go for him instead of going for Frodo. I might even be ok with this if Sauron got some kind of save or Sauron's Will had to be "hit".

That wouldn't bother me so much. What is odd is when you have a wizard or other target with plentiful ranged attacks who would come forward because they'd shoot you with something if an opportunity presented itself. Can anyone come up with a sensible scenario for them? Running up at the fighter is most jarring with such targets -- I can see taunting Sauron into coming at you after all, because he's quite capable of whacking you silly.

 

[James McMurray]

That wouldn't bother me so much. What is odd is when you have a wizard or other target with plentiful ranged attacks who would come forward because they'd shoot you with something if an opportunity presented itself. Can anyone come up with a sensible scenario for them? Running up at the fighter is most jarring with such targets -- I can see taunting Sauron into coming at you after all, because he's quite capable of whacking you silly.

I'd need to know the situation first. Like these ranged attackers are 3 squares away from the fighter in the first place. Is there anything in between them that would prevent a 2 square shift from making them become adjacent?

If not, they were about to be in melee anyway, so some sort of ruse might trick them into starting it "on their own terms."

If there is something defensive in between them (including a single square of difficult terrain or that corner they were firing around), they're immune to Come and Get It.

 

[drachasor]

I'd need to know the situation first. Like these ranged attackers are 3 squares away from the fighter in the first place. Is there anything in between them that would prevent a 2 square shift from making them become adjacent?

If not, they were about to be in melee anyway, so some sort of ruse might trick them into starting it "on their own terms."

If there is something defensive in between them (including a single square of difficult terrain or that corner they were firing around), they're immune to Come and Get It.

The Fighter ran up to a Wizard who has Ray of Frost. Nothing special about the terrain and there is plenty of room for the wizard to retreat. Like almost all wizards, he'd want to avoid getting into melee at all costs. How about that?

Come and Get It can make sense 95%+ with a little work, but there do seem to be instances where it doesn't seem to make any.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What is odd is when you have a wizard or other target with plentiful ranged attacks who would come forward because they'd shoot you with something if an opportunity presented itself. Can anyone come up with a sensible scenario for them?

The fighter might seem to be lunging for cover or to attack you from one side or trying to block your shot such that moving a little in one direction would set you up for a good shot or get you out of his reach, but it was only a fake, and you find yourself moving right into his next attack. Or, it could represent the fighter moving up on one opponent, like a wizard, and the wizard's allies trying, unsucessfully to stop him. I know that gets terribly abstract, but it could work.

FREX: Fighter is trying to get at a Wyrmpriest guarded by three dragonshields. They're just beyond his move. He could charge and hit one dragonshield, maybe charge and bullrush one out of the way and end next to the wyrmpriest, but that wouldn't be a very effective attack, and he wouldn't get to hit the wyrmpriest. That's what he'd like to do, though, crash through the dragonshield, swat them aside /and/ hit wyrmpriest. So, he moves up to within range and uses 'Come and Get It,' drawing all 4 into melee with him and swinging at them all. He describes it, though, as the charge manuever, he boldly runs forward, cutting this way through the dragonshields by main strength, and hitting the wyrmpriest. Mecahnically, they moved to encircle him rather than him thrusting himself into thier midsts, but, in a world where fireballs are represented by cubes of flame, and cone-shaped dragon's breath fills a 3x3 square, that's hardly a major objection.

Another example: A small group of kobold slingers are peppering the party from behind cover, say an overturned trestle table, mantlet, or even largish bush. A fighter moves up to within a square of the cover, and uses 'Come and Get It' to draw them out of cover and hit them. They're now on the wrong side of cover in melee with a fighter. Visually, though, the fighter charged up, grabbed the object providing cover and, with hurculean effort, swung it /through/ the kobolds (or maybe he just smashed through it, leaving a wreck of the object behind the now exposed kobolds who have no choice but to concentrate on the warrior in thier midsts. The cover's still there, and in the right spot relative to the combatants that matter, some of the kobolds took damage, and they're now 'marked' by the fighter.

OR: A lurking monster waits in the shadows for the fighter who knows he's there but can't see him. All it has to do is line up a perfect shot at the armored figure. The fighter, in seeming frustration, lowers his shield and shakes his head in aparent resignation, seeing his chance, the lurker edges forward just a fraction to take the shot, and, suddenly, the fighter reacting instinctively to the hint of motion out of the corner of his eye lunges towards him, weapon first.



I know it's stretching things to have the fighter moving, let alone pushing cover around, but it avoids the absurdity of a 'mind control' visualization of the power, and works well enough for a game with 4e's soft focus on verisimilitude.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm not sure how well this translates into live and die combat with varied weapons, but the power as written makes perfect sense from a foil fencing perspective. So much so, that fencing has terms for it.

You want to tempt someone deliberately, to get them to move in and attack? You seem to let your guard down, an "invitation" to attack. No different than the "false opening" mentioned above. The idea is that they guy attacks, you are ready for it, you parry, you hit him.

But it doesn't stop there. What do you do when someone issues an invitation? If you are trained, you take it! Because the reason you would do a feint is to get your opponent to do something predictable. Now he is issuing an invitation, probably planning on countering what you do--that is, he will do something predictable in response to your attack. You have a good idea what he will counter with. So you plan to counter that.

In D&D terms, it is not merely that seeming to let the guard down is the kind of thing that will occasionally tempt people. Rather, it is the exact thing they are looking for--and if experienced at all, will probably attempt to take advantage of it, even if they suspect you are setting them up. The only kind of opponents that wouldn't move in are those that are already running, those that just saw you use the same trick a few seconds ago, or those so utterly clueless in combat that they aren't a threat. When they come in, they are planning on carving the fighter a short cut to his digestive system. And if he doesn't kill them all, they might very well do it.

 

[Scribble]

The Level 7 Fighter Encounter Power "Come and Get It" is one of several powers that strikes me as very video game and not very logical. Why should all enemies in the close burst 3 move adjacent to the tough looking weapon wielding fighter (even if they don't know that this will subject themeselves to an attack)? It is supposed to be a martial power (not a magical mental compulsion with no save) yet it can compel the controller or the lurker to leave his concealment and move adjacent to the damage dealing fighter. This seems utterly illogical. What would players running wizards and rogues say if an NPC had this power and forced them to move from their well protected spots right next to the BBEG without any roll on their part?

I can appreciate the tactical use of this power, and I am willing to admit it could be a lot of fun (like video games are fun). But one of the reasons I like Table Top RPGs is the ability of the monsters to respond with some creativity and logic and not according to some programming code.

Of course, I know that the whole world of DND is not "realistic" and that this is just one more thing about which I should learn to suspend my disbelief. However, this power (and a few others) feel different to me. Does this encounter exploit bother anyone else or just me?

The fighter is skilled enough at what he does (fighting) to know how to throw a movement that appears (to the untrained eye) to be "leaving himself open."

The monster's aren't realy compelled, so much as tricked. "Ohhh stupid big tough guy did a stupid move! I'll show him!" THWACK.

 

[James McMurray]

The Fighter ran up to a Wizard who has Ray of Frost. Nothing special about the terrain and there is plenty of room for the wizard to retreat. Like almost all wizards, he'd want to avoid getting into melee at all costs. How about that?

Yep, that's a tough one. I'd probably just hand wave it and move on, since the fighter could have just charged and gotten that same basic attack with a +1 to hit, but wanted (for whatever flavor or tactical reasons) to be a badass while doing it. I'd pity the wizard for letting himself get that close to a fighter without anything stopping the guy from unloading on him, and I'd hope the wizard had something up his sleeve (like Shield or Expeditious Retreat) to get him out of there.

I definitely wouldn't ban an entire power because of a few corner cases.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Oh, one last point. I don't recall if this is an encounter or a daily power, but, either way, the fact that you can't use it all the time can be seen as reflecting the fact that it's not the kind of thing that always, or even often, works. The fighter can't go playing the same trick again on the enemies he just suckered with it.

So two common objections to encounter/daily exploits ("how can he do that?" and "why can't he do it again?") can be seen as somewhat cancelling eachother out.