Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Mallus]

In a setting game where over half the classes can wield magic, why is the poor man with the sword stuck maxing out at the human maximum, while the wizard is so much father beyond this.

What makes that stance particularly puzzling is that every character class not only can wield magic via items, it's practically mandated that they do so by higher level.

 

[Stormtalon]

Because fighters are martial characters. They are skilled in what they do, but what they do is mundane. They swing a sword (or axe, halberd, spear, etc) and do it with style and even what appears to be superhuman skill at high levels but they are fundamentally non-magical.

I swear by all that is holy that if 4e has fighters with actual magical powers, not flashy, cinematic, non-anime moves but actually magical crap sputtering out of their swords I will not buy another thing from WoTC. If that crap were to be made a part of the core D&D assumptions regarding what D&D warriors are like I will not DM or play 4e. I would stick to Conan D20 and True20 and pay no further attention to D&D from that point on.

D&D warriors are Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, King Arthur and not friggin Inuyasha. ::chokes back some vomit::

Wow, I found my deal-breaker.....lucky me. :\



Sundragon

I'd have to say it would depend on how fighters might get such powers and how "essential" they end up being. I, for one, would have no problem if, as a racial option, some minor abilities filtered through at high level. Eladrin Fighters with some sort of raw magic or fey-based strikes (or alternately temporarily gaining preternatural deftness and grace), dwarves channeling the strength of the mountains and hell, even tieflings with some sort of attack based on their specific heritage -- all these would be appropriate avenues for something along those lines. Of course, to take that sort of thing, they'd have to play trade-off and maybe give up some equivalent purely-martial ability that they'd otherwise get by following the straight-up fighter paths.

Meanwhile, the straight-fighter path with zero racial abilities should be just as viable as any of the racial paths, but with feats of pure prowess and skill, as should the human and halfling (at least) paths.

I guess what I'm saying here is as long as they fulfill the following conditions:

1) are optional
2) tied deeply to race
and
3) are not clearly better than the non-magical abilities otherwise available

then a few magical powers available to fighters would be acceptable, in my view.

 

[Henry]

Actually, a lot of people think "powers" and they think of Swordsages running fire trails, or hitting their enemies and the enemies exploding in flames, or of a warrior pulling a shadow teleport or shadow garrotte effect out of nothing. It can be "powers" without looking magical.

The Foe Hammer effect can be a good example. Once per minute or so, a fighter can find the perfect opening in a combat to launch an EXACT attack that hits a creature in a weak point in its defenses -- one which ignores any damage reductions it has. He can't do it all the time because the opportunity doesn't present itself.

He can bolster his allies' will saves by his voice, and his reassurance, just by being there, yelling a battle cry.

He can use a special martial throw to dislodge his opponents' footing, or throw them off a cliff. None of these are magical, nor need to be described as such. They're all things that you could argue could be even done in the real world. Aragorn, Roland, and King Arthur could have done any and all of these things (even the martial throw, because contrary to popular belief even Western martial arts wasn't just two people slugging it out with swords till one dropped - there are plenty of feints, off-balance maneuvers, etc. in honest-to-God-anything-goes combat.)

 

[frankthedm]

Because the Fighter is still a non magical human.

Why is it ok for a Wizard to level mountain, while if the Warrior does anything superhuman it's badwrongfun.

IMHO the wizard should be risking his mind body and soul to have a chance at wielding such power. The Fighter is still a human. Arthur was still human, Beowolf was still human.

If a fighter dedicates himself to his swordfighting as much as a wizard dedicates himself to magic, why shouldn't he be able to take on armies by himself? Why should he not be able to act faster than any mere mortal?

With Great Cleave the fighter is a threat to an army, especially if the Autohit on a "20", automiss on a "1" is dropped. 4 atatcks in six seconds to a "mortal's" one attack is acting much faster.

 

[mhensley]

Easy, verisimilitude. When I play a fighter, I want to cleave skulls with my broadsword and trust in the power of muscle and steel. Over the top skills I can deal with. Magic powers are right out. This is totally a deal-breaker for me. If I can't play Conan in D&D, I'll play something else. Right now the problem with 3.5 is that phb fighters are so overpowered by most of the newer classes (duskblade, etc.) that it isn't fun to play one anymore. If 4e can fix that without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I'll play.

 

[Anthtriel]

Aragorn and Lancelot are not valid examples of high level fighters. Not in the rules as is, and certainly not if you empower the fighters more (which frankly, is necessary).

High Level D&D fighters kill armies by themselves. It's a long and tedious process, but since low level warriors can barely even hit him, the Level 20 Fighter in the RAW can beat hundreds of them. Lancelot and Aragorn don't fight against hundreds enemies by themselves at once, not even against more than ten or so, when they are surrounded. That is anime territory.

Hell, Aragorn can do nothing but run from the Balor. The Level 20 fighter would be able to fight that demon. How? Certainly not by swinging his sword a little better. Aragorn is around level 9 oder 10 at best. He doesn't even need to compete against high level magic.


Face it, if fighters are supposed to compete with high level wizards, who move mountains and bend reality, they need something more. I don't refer to jumping hundreds of feats, or flying without magic, but they certainly need supernatural toughness, supernatural strength and supernatural speed (in attacking at least).

If a Level 20 fighter fights, he should be like Sauron in the Fellowship of the Ring movie. Easily smashing dozens of enemies at once, virtually invincible. Anything less than that, and they are limited to a servant.

 

[Raven Crowking]

D&D warriors of high levels are far more capable than any skill can make anyone in the real world. No amount of skill and prowess can make you survive 12 seconds in lava or defeat an elephant with a dagger (for two examples). So as high level warriors have always been over the top you might as well add some interesting and evocative over the top choices for them.

Re: Lava: This is why many DMs (myself included) use a varient set of lava rules. They go: If you are immersed in lava, you die. No save. It is far easier to rewrite the lava rules than it is to rewrite the fighter class.

Re: Elephants: The 1e DMG suggested that certain attacks simply shouldn't be allowed to be effective, based upon common sense and real-world expectations. For instance, a giant centipede should not be dangerous to a storm giant. I'm not sure, though, that defeating an elephant with a dagger is physically impossible......though I'd sure as hell bet on the elephant!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Because fighters are martial characters. They are skilled in what they do, but what they do is mundane. They swing a sword (or axe, halberd, spear, etc) and do it with style and even what appears to be superhuman skill at high levels but they are fundamentally non-magical.

I swear by all that is holy that if 4e has fighters with actual magical powers, not flashy, cinematic, non-anime moves but actually magical crap sputtering out of their swords I will not buy another thing from WoTC. If that crap were to be made a part of the core D&D assumptions regarding what D&D warriors are like I will not DM or play 4e. I would stick to Conan D20 and True20 and pay no further attention to D&D from that point on.

D&D warriors are Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, King Arthur and not friggin Inuyasha. ::chokes back some vomit::

Wow, I found my deal-breaker.....lucky me. :\



Sundragon

Spoken like someone who's never actually read the Tome of Battle or seen what a warblade really is. Unless disarming a guy with a strike, smacking someone so hard they fall down, hitting someone really hard, finding a weak spot in armor or hitting 2 guys with a standard action is a flashy magic power.

The crusader is on par with a paladin. The swordsage is your quintessential fighter/mage type, simplified into one package. No one disputes they dont have magical abilities. However, if fighter/mages (or bladesingers, or duskblades or whatever) and paladins arent anime, I have a hard time believing the other 2 are as well.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Warriors with superpowers doesn't necessarily mean Asian. Beowulf has superhuman strength - enough to tear off Grendel's arm. Gawaine's strength is magical, reaching a peak at noon each day. And Cúchulainn's warp spasms are just insane.

 

[Mistwell]

Because fighters are martial characters. They are skilled in what they do, but what they do is mundane. They swing a sword (or axe, halberd, spear, etc) and do it with style and even what appears to be superhuman skill at high levels but they are fundamentally non-magical.

There is nothing fundamentally non-magical, or mundane, about being a "martial" character. "Martial" just means "of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior". In a world of magic, I would think things that are suited for war would use magic.

Where does this concept of "fundamentally non-magic" come from?

I swear by all that is holy that if 4e has fighters with actual magical powers, not flashy, cinematic, non-anime moves but actually magical crap sputtering out of their swords I will not buy another thing from WoTC.

And I suspect you will. Because you're reacting out of emotion right now, but you won't want to leave this hobby and the peer group you have found that comes with it. So instead you will grumble about it, but eventually accept it and maybe even come to like it (or at least some aspects of it).

If that crap were to be made a part of the core D&D assumptions regarding what D&D warriors are like I will not DM or play 4e. I would stick to Conan D20 and True20 and pay no further attention to D&D from that point on.

D&D warriors are Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, King Arthur and not friggin Inuyasha. ::chokes back some vomit::

Wow, I found my deal-breaker.....lucky me. :\



Sundragon

It's not Inuyasha either. It's likely something entirely different, and tailorable at will. It's what you decide to make of it. Just like it always was.