Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Mercule]

Honestly, mystical fighters are already there, even humans ones, since multiclassing exists and apparently a fighter 7/ wizard 3 is just as effective as a fighter 10 or wizard 10 or even fighter 3/ wizard 7.

I'm not too happy with the idea of fighters of any race getting overtly mystical abilities as a class feature. If it's part of the racial trees (I'm assuming such things exist), then it sounds like a good idea.

Also, I'm totally behind effective (and overtly mystic) fighter/mage multi-classing.

 

[AllisterH]

For me, it all depends on not what the fighter can do.

It depends on what the WIZARD and CLERIC can do. Since the days of 0D&D, through 1E/2E and up to 3.x, magic at high levels has been "It".

A 20th level 1e fighter stripped of his magical gear is simply boned (can't even damage foes of that level), a 10th level 2E fighter without access to magical flying is at the mercy of any flying foes (oh look, the wizard can fly about 5 levels back) and we all know about the Xmas tree effect of the 3.x fighter.

If at 5th level, a 4E wizard can still fly (probably, this isn't true given how it seems like magic is getting nerfed) and yet people only want "walking on branches" by 25th level, I'd say the fighter is just as useless as before.

EVERYTHING in this thread depends on what the MU can do IMO. People keep insisting they WANT Conan, Inigo Montoya etc yet not one of those "classic" fighters would be an effective partymember in a D&D world....

 

[Hussar]

Really, the problem with classic fantasy fighter archetypes is that in classic fantasy, wizards were (rarely) the protagonist. At best they were a Deus Ex Machina for getting the hero out of sticky places. Classic fantasy stories, particularly Sword and Sorcery genre books don't fit very well into D&D and never really did. D&D is just far too high fantasy - PC spellcasters, non-human races, a plethora of magical enemies - to fit into the standard S&S mold. Think about it, Conan fights mostly non-magical enemies. They would count as dire animals in D&D terms usually. Not always, of course, but, typically. And, once the wizard's minions are defeated, Conan easily dispatches the wizard.

That doesn't work in D&D.

 

[Deekin]

Really, the problem with classic fantasy fighter archetypes is that in classic fantasy, wizards were (rarely) the protagonist. At best they were a Deus Ex Machina for getting the hero out of sticky places. Classic fantasy stories, particularly Sword and Sorcery genre books don't fit very well into D&D and never really did. D&D is just far too high fantasy - PC spellcasters, non-human races, a plethora of magical enemies - to fit into the standard S&S mold. Think about it, Conan fights mostly non-magical enemies. They would count as dire animals in D&D terms usually. Not always, of course, but, typically. And, once the wizard's minions are defeated, Conan easily dispatches the wizard.

That doesn't work in D&D.

QFT.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Really, the problem with classic fantasy fighter archetypes is that in classic fantasy, wizards were (rarely) the protagonist. At best they were a Deus Ex Machina for getting the hero out of sticky places. Classic fantasy stories, particularly Sword and Sorcery genre books don't fit very well into D&D and never really did. D&D is just far too high fantasy - PC spellcasters, non-human races, a plethora of magical enemies - to fit into the standard S&S mold. Think about it, Conan fights mostly non-magical enemies. They would count as dire animals in D&D terms usually. Not always, of course, but, typically. And, once the wizard's minions are defeated, Conan easily dispatches the wizard.

That doesn't work in D&D.

grapple the wizard...he's dead.

 

[AllisterH]

grapple the wizard...he's dead.

Only problem is that D&D makes it too easy for the wizard to simply avoid being grappled in the first place.

I mean, *fly* is a classic example. If faced with a wizard who has that cast, (and given that people don't want leaping fighters like we see in wuxia films), the guy who has focused on melee combat is simply at a horrendous disadvantage.

Not only that, but even the speed of spells seems to be faster as you go up in levels due to the fact that spells increase in range as you level, yet they take the same time to reach you (Ex: A fireball cast by a 5th level mage is slower than a fireball cast by a 20th level mage...)

 

[JDJblatherings]

Only problem is that D&D makes it too easy for the wizard to simply avoid being grappled in the first place.

I mean, *fly* is a classic example. If faced with a wizard who has that cast, (and given that people don't want leaping fighters like we see in wuxia films), the guy who has focused on melee combat is simply at a horrendous disadvantage.

Not only that, but even the speed of spells seems to be faster as you go up in levels due to the fact that spells increase in range as you level, yet they take the same time to reach you (Ex: A fireball cast by a 5th level mage is slower than a fireball cast by a 20th level mage...)

climb, jump...grapple. Think. don't stand in the open (or a big room) and wait to get fried. Get that wizard chasing you into a 10-15 foot high corridor or a thru a doorway(eventually he will) and them you got him. oh yeah...Bows and arrows, best way to deal with a flyingmage..hi everyone I'm soft and easy to see...

 

[Hussar]

The only problem being, by the time the wizard has caught up to you, he's got Mirror Images, Stoneskin, Bull's strength, and any number of other spells up, meaning he's going to come and kick your ass.

Or, better yet, flies out of range, starts summoning and buries you under monsters.

Or, Web. You're stuck in the same place for several rounds, have no special abilities that allow you to get out of the web, and, since we're insisting on low magic settings, you shouldn't have any strength buff items either. Hrm, Mr. Wizard now has 5 or 6 free rounds of raining death on you before you can do anything.

The idea that a plain jane fighter has even a remote hope against a wizard past about 7th level is laughable.

 

[JDJblatherings]

The only problem being, by the time the wizard has caught up to you, he's got Mirror Images, Stoneskin, Bull's strength, and any number of other spells up, meaning he's going to come and kick your ass.

Or, better yet, flies out of range, starts summoning and buries you under monsters.

Or, Web. You're stuck in the same place for several rounds, have no special abilities that allow you to get out of the web, and, since we're insisting on low magic settings, you shouldn't have any strength buff items either. Hrm, Mr. Wizard now has 5 or 6 free rounds of raining death on you before you can do anything.

The idea that a plain jane fighter has even a remote hope against a wizard past about 7th level is laughable.

of course D&D solves that proble by having the plain-jane fighter accompnaied by his buddy the rogue, the cleric and the Wizard. The fighter isn't really supposed to be there alone, neither is the wizard.
I franky think a fighter has to be an idiot (or a bad roller) not to be able to beat a wizard of equal level, regardless of level. He just can't do it by calling out the wizard to meet him on a nice big open featureless plain.

 

[Deekin]

of course D&D solves that proble by having the plain-jane fighter accompnaied by his buddy the rogue, the cleric and the Wizard. The fighter isn't really supposed to be there alone, neither is the wizard.
I franky think a fighter has to be an idiot (or a bad roller) not to be able to beat a wizard of equal level, regardless of level. He just can't do it by calling out the wizard to meet him on a nice big open featureless plain.

1st-4th level- Wizard Hits fighter with sleep or color spray. Fighter loses.
5th-9th level- Wizard has fly and protection from arrows. Fighter loses.
10th-20th level- Wizard Scries on fighter, buffs, telelports to fighter, and hits him with a save or lose. Fighter looses.

I'll admit, that if you catch a wizard unprepared, under the right circumstance a fighter can win. The problem is the wizard can change those circumstances so easily.