Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Enforcer]

Loses. One "o" only.

As for an actual response to the post, most Wizard save or die spells are Fortitude saves, which the Fighter can usually beat. The smart Wizard will do something with Will saves, like dominate person.

 

[TwinBahamut]

of course D&D solves that proble by having the plain-jane fighter accompnaied by his buddy the rogue, the cleric and the Wizard. The fighter isn't really supposed to be there alone, neither is the wizard.
I franky think a fighter has to be an idiot (or a bad roller) not to be able to beat a wizard of equal level, regardless of level. He just can't do it by calling out the wizard to meet him on a nice big open featureless plain.

Let me illustrate what people are really complaining about.

Fighters need wizards.

Wizards do not need fighters.

See the problem?

Also, the "balanced team" thing is a problem, since a party of nothing but clerics, or nothing but druids and their animal companions, might well be much stronger than a balanced team.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Let me illustrate what people are really complaining about.

Fighters need wizards.

Wizards do not need fighters.

See the problem?

Also, the "balanced team" thing is a problem, since a party of nothing but clerics, or nothing but druids and their animal companions, might well be much stronger than a balanced team.

huh? Wizards most certainly need Fighters. 10th level wizards don't get to be 10th level wizards without any fighters hanging about.

 

[Cadfan]

huh? Wizards most certainly need Fighters. 10th level wizards don't get to be 10th level wizards without any fighters hanging about.

Right, right. But that's the point where the wizard buys the fighter a nice golden watch, pats him on the shoulder, and puts him in a nursing home.

 

[TwinBahamut]

huh? Wizards most certainly need Fighters. 10th level wizards don't get to be 10th level wizards without any fighters hanging about.

Well, what do they need Fighters for? Or rather, what do they need fighters for that they can't do just as well with good spell selection and preparation?

A good wizard can overcome any obstacle within the rules for D&D with careful planning and use of resources. If nothing else, they can always summon or call a creature to temporarily serve as a fighter.

A fighter needs the assistance of magical classes like wizards, clerics, or druids in order to get around certain problems, like magical effects that need to be dispelled. There are many problems that the fighter can not solve alone, no matter how high level he is or what feats he has chosen.

As such, a Fighter needs a wizard (or equivalent) in order to get through adventures. A team of four or five fighters would be unable to survive high level D&D play. However, there are no situations where a Fighter is absolutely needed, so a team of five wizards (or other spellcasters) would not miss a fighter at all.

 

[AllisterH]

Well, what do they need Fighters for? Or rather, what do they need fighters for that they can't do just as well with good spell selection and preparation?

A good wizard can overcome any obstacle within the rules for D&D with careful planning and use of resources. If nothing else, they can always summon or call a creature to temporarily serve as a fighter.

A fighter needs the assistance of magical classes like wizards, clerics, or druids in order to get around certain problems, like magical effects that need to be dispelled. There are many problems that the fighter can not solve alone, no matter how high level he is or what feats he has chosen.

As such, a Fighter needs a wizard (or equivalent) in order to get through adventures. A team of four or five fighters would be unable to survive high level D&D play. However, there are no situations where a Fighter is absolutely needed, so a team of five wizards (or other spellcasters) would not miss a fighter at all.

QFT.

This is what I most think 4E is aiming to solve. Given that they have been pretty explicit about how the fighter is still "realistic" at mid to high levels, the only thing I can think of is that they have seriously nerfed magic (and given that SoD is out, Wish is gone and they are well aware of the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, it seems a certainity ihigh level D&D magic got whacked).

I'm just wondering if the big cry from players of 4E once we get it isn't that the fighter has wuxia influences but that the wizard is a shadow of his former self. Will the people happy that the fighter is still "normal" be as supportive if it means the neutering of the wizard?

 

[Zamkaizer]

Given that they have been pretty explicit about how the fighter is still "realistic" at mid to high levels, the only thing I can think of is that they have seriously nerfed magic (and given that SoD is out, Wish is gone and they are well aware of the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, it seems a certainity ihigh level D&D magic got whacked).

I don't think they've stated this, explicitly or otherwise. Is their a source you can cite?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I'm just wondering if the big cry from players of 4E once we get it isn't that the fighter has wuxia influences but that the wizard is a shadow of his former self. Will the people happy that the fighter is still "normal" be as supportive if it means the neutering of the wizard?

I certainly would be happier to see a nerfed wizard than a buffed fighter. The power curve of D&D spellcasters is far too steep for my tastes, speaking as someone who mostly wants to recreate the flavor of most fantasy media in a sound Tactics/RPG.

A nerfed wizard, especially in terms of abilities that completely dominate skirmish-level combat, would better fit everything I want to do, from Final Fantasy to Conan.

 

[JohnSnow]

QFT.

This is what I most think 4E is aiming to solve. Given that they have been pretty explicit about how the fighter is still "realistic" at mid to high levels, the only thing I can think of is that they have seriously nerfed magic (and given that SoD is out, Wish is gone and they are well aware of the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, it seems a certainity ihigh level D&D magic got whacked).

I'm just wondering if the big cry from players of 4E once we get it isn't that the fighter has wuxia influences but that the wizard is a shadow of his former self. Will the people happy that the fighter is still "normal" be as supportive if it means the neutering of the wizard?

For my part? Yes. I have no problem with putting more limits on the wizard's power at high levels. The best thing, IMO, would be to flatten out the wizard's power curve, so that he's stronger and more competitive with the other classes at the low levels and weaker at the high levels than he is now.

That goes for the cleric and the druid as well, btw.

 

[Hussar]

For my part? Yes. I have no problem with putting more limits on the wizard's power at high levels. The best thing, IMO, would be to flatten out the wizard's power curve, so that he's stronger and more competitive with the other classes at the low levels and weaker at the high levels than he is now.

That goes for the cleric and the druid as well, btw.

Very much agreed.

The wizards and to a degree, other core casters, need to be brought on par with roughly what a fighter can do at a given level. As well, the fighter needs to come up a fair ways as well.

It shouldn't be that the wizard is outdamaging the fighter by multipliers after certain levels. Never mind all the other things that wizards can do as well.