Why so anti-Palladium

[ZSutherland]

I don't really know anything about Palladium as a company, but I am a pretty hard-core hater of their system. The group of guys I gamed with in middle school and high school started with Hero's Unlimited. We played Ninjas and Superspies. We played Rifts, and Palladium Fantasy. As others have mentioned, the concepts are cool. The mechanical system sucks. Rifts is especially bad about this, but HU, N&SS, suffer from it as well. The games don't have power-creep. They have power avalanche. We never used any of the supplemental Rifts books, and there was still no semblance of balance. For those who have tried it, think Juicer. Now think Rogue Scholar. Yuck. Skills, however, where the worst. Physical skills that provide immense stat bonuses? Let's see, can a Juicer manage to get every physical skill with a stat bonus at first level? Yup. Does this make him all but invulnerable to anything short of WMDs? Yup. Again, yuck. The problem with Palladium, from my point of view isn't that it's kind of munchkin-esque. It's that it actively encourages munchkin behaviour.

Have you ever been somewhere in public and seen a child/pre-teen who was acting abysmally while the parents did nothing to correct the child and then shuddered to yourself as you realized that person or someone just like him is potentially your future boss, co-worker, or employee? As someone said, Palladium's saving grace as a company is that they hook players young. Many kids cut their gaming teeth on Palladium games, and they learn to be munchkin powergamers. These people are potentially your future DMs, players, and group members. I know that makes me shudder.

Z

 

[shilsen]

I *love* them. Well, except for Shilsen's, who would likely immediately fall in my game, depending on his deity.

Oh, wait ... Palladium...

Hey - my fictional characters are getting dissed on completely unrelated threads? Fame at last

 

[Psion]

I will first say I'mn not trying to cause trouble with this thread. But I have seen a number of anti-Palladium threads and want to know why you people dislike it so much. It has good concepts P.P.E. and I.S.P(I think thats what its called) and their books cost at most 30$ for about 300 pages Wizards could learn something from that. So why do you not like Palladium?

PPE and ISP are just spell points by another name. Hardly anything to get excited about.

The early RIFTS books had some really cool concepts with them, and I also dug some of their other books. I have even been known to pilfer ideas from RIFTS Atlantis and Mystic China.

But I find the Palladium system (meaning all variants based on the system, not just the Palladium FRPG) nigh unplayable. It has no notion of balance (and I anticipate the all too typical palladium fan response of it acheives balance by not being balances, etc. Feh. If a system's determiners such as level or experience don't have a credible static expectation of power in the game, I cannot trust it to do its job and it becomes useless AFAIAC.)

 

[Prince of Happiness]

My complaints really had to do with making a character in the first place, then levelling up. Gah! "Is it in this book? No, this one? No? How about this one? YES!" Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Acid_crash]

Palladium books were some of my first attempts at roleplaying...just combine Heroes Unlimited with Ninjas and Superspies and TMNT and you have yourself one messed up game, yet fun at the same time.

I think the fallacy in thinking, ever since 2000, is that roleplaying games HAVE to have internal game balance...why? I'm not a fanboy of Palladium, but I did find most of their games fun. I liked their games for the worlds they created. HU, N&S, TMNT, Rifts, Nightbane, Chaos Earth, Robotech, Palladium Fantasy RPG 2e, Beyond the Supernatural, etc... all of them have really cool ideas and world information that can be mined for any number of good stuff. They are not balanced, and they were not designed for game balance. Kevin S. has even said as much, and he has said a few years ago when d20 was first out and people started converting Rifts to d20 that he would never cater to a company he doesn't like, and never convert any of his products to d20 because, in his mind, he would be catering to the enemy.

I don't know the link nor have it at my disposal, but I remember that. Sure, he's an egomaniac, but he knows what he wants. Now, if he loses money because of it, that's on him. I don't purchase his books because of how he treated others that worked for him, and how he threatens anybody who even mentions converting one of his games to a different system, even if it's just for home use. That is just crap, and he won't get my money, even if I like some of the worlds he has created. He has a good imagination with a really bad sense of humor and bad sense of gamer curtesy.

What's sad is that he could just take the d20 system, redo it under the OGL, and recreate RIFTS as an OGL product and bam, he would be making a crap load of money that WotC would never get a cent for. The man is just dumb about somethings.

 

[Crothian]

My complaints really had to do with making a character in the first place, then levelling up. Gah! "Is it in this book? No, this one? No? How about this one? YES!" Wash, rinse, repeat.

that's only a proiblem if you use lots of books. Same can happen in GURPS, White Wolf, and I've even heard there are few d20 books out there.

 

[Remathilis]

Ok, I'll bite. Why I PERSONALLY DISLIKE the Palladium System/Rulebooks.

1.) Kitbashing. The Martial Arts rules from Ninja/Superspies, the Mutation Rules from TMNT, the Psionics from BTS, the Magic from PFRPG. 0% Compatibility, except for using the same ability scores (it'd be like playing a M&M Superhero, a dwarf paladin, and a twi-lek jedi on the same party, with all rules intact).

2.) Copy. Paste. The same Weapon's Chart has appeared in ALL Palladium books since the beginning of time. Literally copy and paste.

3.) Physical Program. Who DOESN'T take this? I regularly get PS/PP/PE score of 30+ in any PRPG by virtue of this gem.

4.) MDC. When hp just isn't enough.

5.) Leveling Takes Forever. I've never leveled a PRPG character. Never needed to, they're uber at first level.

6.) Combat takes forever. Makes 3.5 + Battlemat look quick. Roll Parry, Roll RwP, etc.

7.) Skills are useless, except for the Phyiscal (see above) and Espinoage.

8.) The standard character sheets are WAY too small for humans to possibly record all pertinant info about their PC on.

9.) Balance? We don't Need no Stinkin Balance!

10.) There is nothing (Fantasy, Modern Horror, Superheroes, Sci-Fi) that can't be done better with another system (not necessarily d20 even) than PRPG.
As someone else said: Mine it for ideas, but I can't abide that system for actual PLAY. YMMV though.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

that's only a proiblem if you use lots of books. Same can happen in GURPS, White Wolf, and I've even heard there are few d20 books out there.

Yeah, but with those systems it's a lot easier to take a shot in the dark and guess how your character's going to advance, whereas Palladium had their percentile skill system that did not give consistent advances with their skill percentages and the broken martial arts systems. Augh! It was too much for a ten year old to stomach even when he was a TMNT maniac and trying to figure out the frickin' game!

Though I have to say that the picture of the buff mutant rabbit in S&M leather "zipper mouth" mask is probably one of the greatest pictures in all of gaming.*

*the Turtles in Hollywood supplement, or whatever it's called.

 

[Remathilis]

What's sad is that he could just take the d20 system, redo it under the OGL, and recreate RIFTS as an OGL product and bam, he would be making a crap load of money that WotC would never get a cent for. The man is just dumb about somethings.

Its never been about the money. Its all Pride; for a long time Palladium was a viable alternative to D&D and (esp) other genres of role-playing. Thanks to OGL, that glory is gone. He refuses to see it however, and his pride (for whatever reason) will not be swallowed for the sake of money. He'd alienate too much of his already diminishing fanbase by doing so, and its not a risk he wants to take.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think the fallacy in thinking, ever since 2000, is that roleplaying games HAVE to have internal game balance...why?

I think THIS is the fallacy. This wasn't something started by 3ed. It's not a new concept to roleplaying games. It was always there. Ever since the beginnings of RPGs, there have been players who've said "X character class is great, Y is useless". 1st ed D&D had "because demi-humans get lots of advantages, they're limited in level". It was a bad way to balance them, but nonetheless it was an attempt. The idea was there.

I'm not a fanboy of Palladium, but I did find most of their games fun. I liked their games for the worlds they created. HU, N&S, TMNT, Rifts, Nightbane, Chaos Earth, Robotech, Palladium Fantasy RPG 2e, Beyond the Supernatural, etc... all of them have really cool ideas and world information that can be mined for any number of good stuff.

At a guess when you were playing, you looked at what the mechanics behind classes were, then chose a class. At a guess, you never had anyone play a rogue scholar or vagabond. At a guess noone played mutant animals in heroes unlimited. At a guess, the guy with all 15's thought his character sucked, because it did.

If you avoid the holes in a rule system, it's playable. They're still holes in the system though, a system you paid good money for.