Why so many in a hurry to leave 3E?

[Thunderfoot]

I have to admit that when rumors of 4e started I was angry, angry that anyone would even consider trying to sell me a new set of rules. the digital initiative and the subscription service of electronic extras had me madder than an old wet hen.

But I was at GenCon, I've seen the demos, I've talked to the designers and had a chance to hear what they think. I'll be the first to admit, I have contemplated regressing to 2e for the XP track alone, but my hate of PrCs and players controlling the rules over GMs administrating the games ran a close second and third. The rules glut was getting unbearable. As a DM, I was burning out.

4e is supposed to be DM friendly, easy to create, easy to run, easy to administer, easy to build on. Its supposed to get rid of PrCs (or at least curtail them), and pare down the rules considerably. The magic item creation system is being overhauled and the CR/EL system downright axed. I have to admit, I'm getting excited about what's on the horizon.

I never really liked 3.X, I like many others simply played because it was all there was that was being supported, that and with the OGL the third party stuff made it bearable. There were aspects that made sense, but I want something that hearkens back to the golden age of role-playing without regressing, I want a progressively advancing system that has an old school feel. 3e isn't and never was it; here's hoping that 4e is. (PS don't mention C&C, it regressess, much like Hackmaster.)

 

[kaomera]

So many people talk like that as soon as the 4E books come out they have to quit playing 3E.

Why is that?

Me, personally: 3.5 is "New D&D". It's what the people I want to game with play, it's what all the new books I might buy run on. 3.0 Used to be "New D&D", but now it's not anymore. When 4e hits (and that pretty much means when The Keep on the Shadowfell is in my greasy paws) it will be "New D&D".

However, I'm not exactly sure what that will mean, yet. None of my players are online much, as of Saturday they had basically no idea what was up with 4e. And with Dragon gone I'm not exactly sure how or how much they will find out. The D&DI stuff didn't seem to interest them as much as it does me, and while you don't need to be online to play 4e the online content is a big part of the product. I suspect that 4e will rock, and that most of these guys (and gals) will want on-board, just probably not right away. I suspect that we will wrap up the Iron Kingdoms game we're just now starting before moving on to 4e. (From everything I've heard I don't think changing systems in mid-campaign would be a real option, anyway.)

At least two of the people I've been gaming with the last few years (who actually aren't in the IK game) probably won't be switching, if I'm guessing right. They have too much invested (and I'm not talking money) in 3.5 to want to switch. (I know it sounds bad, but I don't know how better to word this: The "more fun" part of 4e is just not going to be up their alleys...) Maybe I'm wrong, tho...

Personally I just like the direction the designers seem to be trying to head in. 4e sounds like an awesome game, I'm mostly worried about WotC being able to deliver on all of their promises at this point... So I won't be starting any more 3.5 games, unless I'm specifically asked to by people I want to run for.

One more thing I would like to point out: While they aren't "New D&D" I would gladly run or play 1e AD&D (or oD&D, now that I have a copy). They're fine games and I don't actually need "support" for a system to run it. (It's just nice that these people are willing to put out all this neat-o reading material and all I have to do in return is bake some cakes so that I can collect the filthy scraps of green paper that they seem to like for some reason...) Mostly I'm not running 1e AD&D because a) I "blew it" back when I was 14 and don't have a long-running campaign world that I've been playing for nearly 30 years, and b) it's not what the people I play with want me to run.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

All the rules problems I have been aware of are fixed. Polymorph is figured out (right?). All the insta kills are nerfed to be "nice-nice", so why leave the fully corrected 3E for a new rules set that will have its own new set of issues to work out?

Thats what I don't understand.

Nah. 3e has lots of issues. Inflexible classes, fighters too dumb to dodge, magic items, etc. At least to me. Obviously everyone is going to have a different take on the issues.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Well, I am looking at my 2 shelf feet of 3.5 books and thinking I do not want to change. I do like 3.5 and think it does a good job of doing Fantasy role-play. I will look at 4E and think about it, but it will all depend on what it looks like.

 

[Mouseferatu]

If 3E is as good as so many have said it is, why are you even moving on to 4E? It can't be because you've done everything that can be done in 3E.

Two reasons.

1) Because while 3.5 is a good game, it has its flaws, many of which have only become more apparent as time goes on. I still love gaming with 3.5, but it's not as fun as it used to be.

2) Because I really, really like about 95% of the changes I've heard about for 4E, and even those very few I dislike, I only dislike mildly. Why stick with something--even if I like it--if I have the option of something I like even more?

 

[FireLance]

Let me explain graphically:

When 3.5e was released

Oooh, shiny! -------------------------------------------------->

This needs
to be fixed, ----->
or in the core

Now

Oooh, shiny! ----->

This needs
to be fixed, -------------------------------------------------->
or in the core

 

[Psion]

The main reason I would have for getting 4e is because it will most likely become an accepted standard unless it's totally botched. People I know and want to play with will be playing it. And I like to game. Having the latest game and understanding it = more gaming.

And people are more important than books. I've been known to play the likes of Gamma World 1e with a group of people I find fun to play with.

Yep. Got told how great 3E is, many, many times, when I talked about C&C. So its part of why I am curious since all of a sudden people are talking about how broken 3E is, how much of a burden 3E is on the DM, etc...

I'm not about to "throw it in a trash can". It's a damn fine game, and several things that are being talked about as directions for 4e lie at odds with my personal style. Like all this Bo9S per-encounter based BS.

But you see, that's just my style. I see you are trying to use this as a chance to crow victory over your hated game when the fact is that your personal preference is just that, personal. As are the preferences of those who like 3e just fine, or who are embracing 4e wholesale. (I'm guessing a good amount of the 4e crowd you are declaring solidarity with would gladly chuck your precious C&C in a trashcan, too, given the chance.)

, when I have had so many telling me in the past how great 3E is, yet many are eager to jump ship, leave the perfection of 3E for 4E.

I would think that by now they would have 3E "perfect" with all the years they have had to house rule out the problems. So why move on to 4E thats going to have its own "broken" issues?

Because it's fresh. It's different. It's "the new thing". And Wizards really is, I imagine, trying to suss out the tastes of the bulk of their market. But that choice will invariably leave some people as outliers, with their tastes and values un-tended.

You act as if there is some perfection. There isn't. There is only tastes and how well it is tended to.

Still, I find it curious why so many people I know "love 3E" are talking like they are willing to chuck 3E in the trash as soon as they can. Its like there has been a 360 degree shift in how great 3E is.

Can I have a list of these people so I may survey them? Or do you wanna put that big brush down?

Edit: or here's another answer if you want to believe there is an objective perfection: these people are progressive and are merely moving on to better and better systems.

Is anyone who is playing 3E right now not loving it? Do they have fun and look forward to the next game session?

The group I play spycraft with never even upgraded to 3.5. So I'd say yeah.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Two reasons.

1) Because while 3.5 is a good game, it has its flaws, many of which have only become more apparent as time goes on. I still love gaming with 3.5, but it's not as fun as it used to be.

2) Because I really, really like about 95% of the changes I've heard about for 4E, and even those very few I dislike, I only dislike mildly. Why stick with something--even if I like it--if I have the option of something I like even more?

That's pretty much my thoughts on the subject. Having said that, I imagine that my group will still be playing 3.xE until at least the end of next year, if not later than that. I will run my campaign to a natural close, rather than stopping it abruptly to start a 4E game the second it is released. 3.xE isn't a perfect system but it's still very, very playable and a lot of fun.

I didn't get to play D&D much for most of the 3.0 part of 3E and I have only been playing 3.xE regularly for about the last 2 years. There are still a lot of things that I want to try out and a few adventures that I want to run in this edition before I switch over. Plus, the move use I get out of my 3.xE books, the better. 4E will still be waiting for me when I am ready.

I figure that by the time I get my group to switch over to 4E, I might be able to get a second printing of the PHB with a lot of the errors picked up and corrected. I'll still follow it closely here on EN World and will have a bit of a read through the core books at my FLGS but I'll try and hold of on buying it straight away. Having said that, the hype and excitement surrounding 4E may get the better of me!

Olaf the Stout

 

[Treebore]

Psion I would appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth. How many times do I have to say if I hated 3E like you say I do, why do I likely own just as many, if not more 3E books than you do? Why do I still use them for my C&C game?

See? The "hate" isn't there, so quit insisting that I have it. WOTC is the only thing I feel anything close to hate for, now its died down to ambivelance.

Try to actually see things from my perspective, and I think you might actually see why I wonder about this apparent turn around about 3E.

 

[Treebore]

Because it's a new edition of D&D, man! That's exciting!

It's a whole new system to learn, poke, and prod. I can't wait to look under the hood and give it a whirl.

I can actually understand this reason, its a good part of why I use the rules base I use.