Why so many in a hurry to leave 3E?

[MoogleEmpMog]

As someone who has compared 3e favorably to C&C in the past, specifically butting heads with Treebore on this issue:

My criticisms of C&C were never contingent on 3e being my favorite game (although it is my favorite version of D&D to date) or a great game or even necessarily a GOOD game - they were contingent on C&C being, to my mind, a regression to a style and a rulesset that I find very unpleasant: one based on AD&D 1e. Since these threads almost invariably began with someone either asking about C&C or asking for advice on a system to play, I expressed my views on that system and offered alternatives - sometimes including D&D 3.5, which I do consider overall a better game than C&C.

I have always championed other systems, generally ones I consider much lighter than 3e, as alternatives to BOTH 3e and C&C: True20 and Mutants and Masterminds (and now Star Wars Saga, which has the added benefit of compatibility with many standard d20 rules), FATE/Spirit of the Century, Silhouette Core, etc.

My interest in D&D 4e is contingent on it being a system more suitable to my uses than EITHER C&C or D&D 3.5 (and leaps and bounds better than any pre-3e version of D&D other than BECMI). If this proves not to be the case, I may sometimes play it, but am highly unlikely to GM it. Similarly, I don't currently GM D&D 3.5 and only reluctantly play it. I would actively avoid playing C&C (or AD&D) because I actively dislike those games, whereas I'm neutral toward D&D 3.5 and BECMI D&D.

 

[Treebore]

I'll switch as soon as I can. From what I've heard and read, everything I don't like about 3ed is being addressed in 4ed. Plus I'm kind of burned out on 3ed and I'm ready for something new.

I can understand this, but I am not sure about the burned out part. Are you burned out because of overload? Are you burned out because you game 30 to 50 hours a week and have played through every module and played every possible character and PrC concept?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

With the hundreds or even thousands of PrCs no one is capable of playing through all them. (It doesn't help that some of the PrC concepts won't fit some players, or that some plain suck.)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I can understand this, but I am not sure about the burned out part. Are you burned out because of overload? Are you burned out because you game 30 to 50 hours a week and have played through every module and played every possible character and PrC concept?

I don't think you need to have played every module, character concept, etc. to get burned out at the system level.

Treebore, I get the impression C&C/pre-3e D&D is pretty much the only tabletop RPG you really like or have cared to play extensively (I don't recall off hand if you've said you played much of non-D&D/d20-derived systems at some point in the past). If you really like having just one core system, playing in one main genre, running very long (2+ year) campaigns, possibly even using a consistent world from campaign to campaign, I can understand why it may seem odd to you that some players just plain get sick of the mechanics of any given game.

For me, speaking as someone who has been in and out of tabletop RPGs in general and tends to flit from system to system, even the systems I really, really like, like Saga and SotC, I'd get sick of if I played exclusively. Even the genres I really like, like pulp and sword and sorcery, I'd get sick of if I played exclusively. I definitely wouldn't want any one campaign to last more than a year or two - especially as a GM, I'd get very sick of a game that lasted that long, its setting very much included. I certainly wouldn't run another game in the same world without at least a one-campaign break.

 

[Treebore]

As someone who has compared 3e favorably to C&C in the past, specifically butting heads with Treebore on this issue:

My criticisms of C&C were never contingent on 3e being my favorite game (although it is my favorite version of D&D to date) or a great game or even necessarily a GOOD game - they were contingent on C&C being, to my mind, a regression to a style and a rulesset that I find very unpleasant: one based on AD&D 1e. Since these threads almost invariably began with someone either asking about C&C or asking for advice on a system to play, I expressed my views on that system and offered alternatives - sometimes including D&D 3.5, which I do consider overall a better game than C&C.

I have always championed other systems, generally ones I consider much lighter than 3e, as alternatives to BOTH 3e and C&C: True20 and Mutants and Masterminds (and now Star Wars Saga, which has the added benefit of compatibility with many standard d20 rules), FATE/Spirit of the Century, Silhouette Core, etc.

My interest in D&D 4e is contingent on it being a system more suitable to my uses than EITHER C&C or D&D 3.5 (and leaps and bounds better than any pre-3e version of D&D other than BECMI). If this proves not to be the case, I may sometimes play it, but am highly unlikely to GM it. Similarly, I don't currently GM D&D 3.5 and only reluctantly play it. I would actively avoid playing C&C (or AD&D) because I actively dislike those games, whereas I'm neutral toward D&D 3.5 and BECMI D&D.

I am starting to regret mentioning C&C at all in this thread. My "common sense" told me not to mention it, but I convinced myself people would see why the many posts about C&C and 3.5 would cause me to wonder about why people seem so eager to move on to 4E when so many said 3E was such a great gaming experience for them.

Fortunately most people in this thread seem to understand what I am asking and why.

Still, I get the over all point of your post. You play what gives you the game your looking for. So do I. So on that we are the same. We just found different games that give us what we want.

I personally have no problem with 4E coming along. Its still D20 based. Its just going to be a new rules system from which I can lift rules and ideas that I like and incorporate into my game. Plus I am sure I will be able to adapt and use 4E modules just like I do 3E, maybe even easier considering what I am hearing about 4E. So for me I get the best of both worlds. A new D&D system from which to get new ideas from, and an old one (3 old ones) from which I can continue to get ideas and use.

So can we go back to the questions I asked in the OP and not try to derail this as some 3.5/C&C fight?

 

[Dinkeldog]

Once again, let's not try to attribute motives to others, cast aspersions on others, or make assumptions. Civility is the rule here, friends and neighbors.

Thanks,
--Dinkeldog/Moderator

 

[Treebore]

I don't think you need to have played every module, character concept, etc. to get burned out at the system level.

Treebore, I get the impression C&C/pre-3e D&D is pretty much the only tabletop RPG you really like or have cared to play extensively (I don't recall off hand if you've said you played much of non-D&D/d20-derived systems at some point in the past). If you really like having just one core system, playing in one main genre, running very long (2+ year) campaigns, possibly even using a consistent world from campaign to campaign, I can understand why it may seem odd to you that some players just plain get sick of the mechanics of any given game.

For me, speaking as someone who has been in and out of tabletop RPGs in general and tends to flit from system to system, even the systems I really, really like, like Saga and SotC, I'd get sick of if I played exclusively. Even the genres I really like, like pulp and sword and sorcery, I'd get sick of if I played exclusively. I definitely wouldn't want any one campaign to last more than a year or two - especially as a GM, I'd get very sick of a game that lasted that long, its setting very much included. I certainly wouldn't run another game in the same world without at least a one-campaign break.

then let me give you some of my gaming background.

I currently play and run C&C and L5R, and run MegaTraveller. I played and DMed 3E/3.5E from 2001 to late 2005. I played L5R. GURPS 4E, MegaTraveller, Mutants and Masterminds, and Shadowrun during this time as well.

Before that I played 2E for 10 years, interspersed with Shadowrun, RIFTS, Synnibar, Chivalry and Sorcery, Aftermath, Rolemaster, Harn, MERPS, Cyberpunk 2020, Paladium Fantasy, SpaceMAster. Twilight 2000, and others.

From 1985 to 1989 I played 1E, OD&D, Paranoia, Traveller/MegaTraveller, Paladium Fantasy, Aftermath. and others.

Then there are systems I own and never played/ran, or only go to do one shots with, such as CoC, EPICrpg, Harp, Runequest, etc...

Thats my gaming pedigree.

Edit: I also meant to say I understand the "getting bored" part, otherwise I wouldn't have played all the other games I have. I think its healthy, great fun, and just makes the RPG experience all that much better. By the same token I had fun playing all of the ones I mentioned, despite any "problems" they have/had. I would play them again in a heart beat as long as I beleived the DM was a good one. IE one who knows how to make the game fun.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

then let me give you some of my gaming background.

I currently play and run C&C and L5R, and run MegaTraveller. I played and DMed 3E/3.5E from 2001 to late 2005. I played L5R. GURPS 4E, MegaTraveller, Mutants and Masterminds, and Shadowrun during this time as well.

Before that I played 2E for 10 years, interspersed with Shadowrun, RIFTS, Synnibar, Chivalry and Sorcery, Aftermath, Rolemaster, Harn, MERPS, Cyberpunk 2020, Paladium Fantasy, SpaceMAster. Twilight 2000, and others.

From 1985 to 1989 I played 1E, OD&D, Paranoia, Traveller/MegaTraveller, Paladium Fantasy, Aftermath. and others.

Then there are systems I own and never played/ran, or only go to do one shots with, such as CoC, EPICrpg, Harp, Runequest, etc...

Thats my gaming pedigree.

OK, cool. I wasn't sure, because you *usually* seemed to only talk about the D&D-derived games. Maybe because ENWorld is primarily a D&D board? If so, that's very understandable.

In light of that, I'm surprised you can't see how someone would get burned out on a particular set of mechanics, though. Even if they hadn't exhausted all the options within the rules, there are plenty of things for them to get sick of: the general tone and feel of the game, the probabilities or dice mechanics involved, the particulars of the player/GM divide, etc.

I am starting to regret mentioning C&C at all in this thread. My "common sense" told me not to mention it, but I convinced myself people would see why the many posts about C&C and 3.5 would cause me to wonder about why people seem so eager to move on to 4E when so many said 3E was such a great gaming experience for them.

-snip-

So can we go back to the questions I asked in the OP and not try to derail this as some 3.5/C&C fight?

I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from in those threads, since it seemed relevant to your question - which itself derived from those threads, to the best of my understanding. Frankly, I don't much care to fight about a couple of systems I don't play, either.

 

[Treebore]

OK, cool. I wasn't sure, because you *usually* seemed to only talk about the D&D-derived games. Maybe because ENWorld is primarily a D&D board? If so, that's very understandable.

In light of that, I'm surprised you can't see how someone would get burned out on a particular set of mechanics, though. Even if they hadn't exhausted all the options within the rules, there are plenty of things for them to get sick of: the general tone and feel of the game, the probabilities or dice mechanics involved, the particulars of the player/GM divide, etc.



I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from in those threads, since it seemed relevant to your question - which itself derived from those threads, to the best of my understanding. Frankly, I don't much care to fight about a couple of systems I don't play, either.

Yeah, I tend to come here for D&D conversation, ideas, viewpoints. Wyhen I am playing other games you'll see me on their messageboards, like I was over at ICE when I was prepping for my HARP one shot, I am pretty regular over at the L5R AEG boards, the only one I really don't hang out on a board for is Taveller. I get to run that one so little I have tons of ideas to use yet.

 

[Agamon]

Not sure if my AoW game will be done by May. And even if it is, we're playing M&M next (Paragons, baby!). I'll probably give 4E a shakedown at the local RPGA club, which I'm sure will convert from LG to LFR. Not really my gaming style, but it's good way to learn the game.