Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)

[JRRNeiklot]

I don't understand this kind of thinking at all. You'd decline and otherwise great game because someone might potentially have a drink and become obnoxious. I might potentially rape your dog, the dm might potentially hold you hostage and demand 10,000 12 siders as ransom. How can you go or do anything without the potential for something bad happening? You could get ran over in the driveway, does that stop you from getting in your car?

 

[Fifth Element]

The Emily Post Institute offers etiquette advice and manners advice

I could link you to a dozen etiquette sources. Are you really and honestly disputing there are rules of etiquette?

I don't dispute that certain ways of behaving will not be considered acceptable by almost everyone in a particular society. I'm disputing that there is a single set of "rules", such as those set out by Ms. Post (whoever she may have been), that must be followed to be considered "polite". I'm disputing that beyond very general things there is any real set of rules that must be followed.

If so, before answering, ask a female in your life (wife, girlfriend, sister, mother, whatever) if they agree with you. Cause I am willing to bet they know exactly what I am talking about.

You've clearly never met my wife or mother, then. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you're talking about. There are some people in my family who think that "rules of etiquette" are extremely important. I simply reject that value judgment.

I am

...

I am pretty sure it's even more strict in New Brunswick than here in California.

You seem to be saying there are no rules of manners where you live. I think you're just not aware of them, but they are there, and they apply to you, and probably others noticed you're not following them and are just politely not mentioning it to you.

I'm pretty sure that "I'm right, and you appear to be ignorant" would be considered rude by most people.

Are you thinking of New Brunswick, New Jersey? I'm referring to the province of New Brunswick in Canada. Otherwise I don't know why you'd think that.

Of course, I'm not saying what you say I'm saying, and you're being very presumptuous and condescending. Both of which are often considered rude, but not always.

 

[SteveC]

Wow. This discussion has certainly taken an interesting turn. Just so I can be sure I understand it, if there's this conversation:

Bill: Hey Ted, we're having a great game of D&D and we have an opening. Are you interested in playing? Oh, by the way, we have a couple folks in it who have a beer while we're playing every so often.

Ted: Sorry, Bill. I make it a point of not gaming where there might be alcohol involved.

In this case Ted has somehow offended Bill?

Case two:

Bill: Okay, so the ogre rears back and clobbers Socrates with his greatclub...that's 17 damage.

Socrates: Well I'm out...hmmn, Methinks I think I will fetch a glass of wine, since Ted's character is out of healing and I've already spent my second wind...

Ted: Umm, didn't we agree to no drinking during the game?

Socrates: certainly as a general principle, but I shall only have a small glass, and everyone knows I am renowned for my ability to drink and not have it affect me.

Ted: Uh, I'm not comfortable with that, I should probably call it an early night.

...once again, has Ted done something offensive?

If you believe Ted has been offensive, replace drinking with smoking, watching the TV or simply something that you (the person reading this) don't like. If your opinion changes,is there a difference here, or is it just a preference that you don't share?

Personally I think we should give personal preference, for whatever the reason, the prerogative to opt out, and not have anyone be insulted by it. If I'm totally off base here, I'd like to know why that is...

--Steve

 

[Fifth Element]

Pretty straightforward parallel, I thought. Hope this helps.

You suggested that Bumbles thought people should never go on picnics because it might rain. That's different than saying Bumbles chooses not to go on picnics because it might rain. The difference is between personal behaviour and expecting every else to behave like you do.

Call it peculiar, which it might well be. But it's a choice.

 

[Krensky]

Bumbles, the problem is that your stance of not attending any event where alcohol is present on the basis that people might become drunk is on it's face, well, let's say absurd. It's also prejudiced and unfair. You are collecting every person who imbibes (which is probably somewhere on the order of a few billion people) and saying because some of them are bad actors they must all be bad actors.

You've made it quite clear that you don't wish to discuss anything personal in order to clarify the reasons and motivations behind this personal choice. However, with out that information it is impossible for you to actually explain yourself. If, and this is an example not a guess, someone's father was a brutal alcoholic who beat them and killed their mother and that person expressed the view of not wanting to be around people who were or had been drinking, it would seem far less absurd then your position, stripped of context and history, does. Still not necessarily a rational position, but that's neither here or there.

Personally, I could care less about your personal life and I'm not asking about it. The problem though is that you have taken an apparently absurd position and refused to explain with any clarity how you achieved it. This, combined with the prejudicial nature of the position means that it is quite easy to see as offensive.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

You suggested that Bumbles thought people should never go on picnics because it might rain.

Uh, no, I didn't. (Are you joking around? If not, you should really take more time to read.)

Call it peculiar, which it might well be.

I have. It is.

But it's a choice.

I like cheeseburgers. Pain hurts. Gravity on Earth expresses by making things fall at 10 meters per second per second. In 1776, the American colonies decla -- what?

Oh, we're not stating things nobody's disputed? my bad, I misunderstood the game.

 

[Fifth Element]

If you as a close friend of mine invited me to your house and I said "No, because you are ugly, smelly, and your significant other is a female dog, and I fear lightening will strike your house while I am there as punishment for your disgustingness" I feel pretty certain you would think my reason for declining your invitation was inhospitable. Can we please not pretend there are no bad reasons for declining an invitation? There are bad reasons. We debate if THIS is one of those bad reasons, but it's not really debatable that there are NO bad reasons.

In your example, it's not declining the invitation that's rude, it's the manner in which is was declined that's rude. If you say instead just "Sorry, I can't make it", is that rude? Even if your reasons are exactly the above, just not spelled out to your friend? You know enough not to say anything, because your friend would be insulted.

I do dispute that there are no "bad reasons" in the way that you use the term. If you simply don't feel like going, that's not rude. I say again, an invitation does not compel you to attend. Of course, if you routinely refuse such invitations, your friends may stop inviting you, and you may suffer for that. But that's doesn't make not attending rude.

 

[Fifth Element]

Uh, no, I didn't. (Are you joking around? If not, you should really take more time to read.)

Here you go:

By the rationale he's using, nobody can ever go on a picnic outdoors, because it has rained in the past, and might rain in the future.

 

[Fifth Element]

Okay ... ?

What "social pressure" is being exerted? And by whom?

Are you positing that inviting someone to dinner is "exerting social pressure" and therefore "rude"? Really?

How interesting.

I'd suggest that Mistwell is attempting to exert social pressure by calling the choice to not attend rude. Etiquette is all about social pressure, the fear of being looked down upon if you don't behave in a certain way.

 

[Bumbles]

Bumbles, the problem is that your stance of not attending any event where alcohol is present on the basis that people might become drunk is on it's face, well, let's say absurd. It's also prejudiced and unfair. You are collecting every person who imbibes (which is probably somewhere on the order of a few billion people) and saying because some of them are bad actors they must all be bad actors.

Nope. I'm saying any of them might be bad actors, so if it's all the same to you(though apparently it's not), I'll opt out of having to decide. It is a subtle difference, but an important one.

Personally, I could care less about your personal life and I'm not asking about it. The problem though is that you have taken an apparently absurd position and refused to explain with any clarity how you achieved it.

What more do you truly need than "Based on past negative experiences with people drinking alcohol, and the problems of dealing with that, I choose to avoid the problem" ?