D&D 5E Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented

[Oofta]

The human thing is core 2nd edition rules. The computer game goes with something that makes more sense (The dual classed fighter druid can wear any armour). It jumps the other way with cleric weapons though. Your dual classed cleric fighter is merrily choping things up with a sword, then suddenly wham, you level up and you can't hold your sword any more.

The relevance should be obvious.

No, it's not. A decision made 20 years ago by a DM or a development team for a version that was replaced shortly after has no relevance to the the current version of the game. I'm sure a lot of DMs have ignored the rule over the years, just as they are free to do today. That doesn't make it any less of a rule.

 

[TwoSix]

Which of course is likely fine since **nobody** is after just open access to metal armor for their druid, right?

<Raises hand> It's a corny bit of flavor with no real balance impact, and it makes multiclassing with a druid way more complicated than it has to be. I ignore it in my own games, and it should go the way of the "ex-paladin" rules from 3e.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No, it's not. A decision made 20 years ago by a DM or a development team for a version that was replaced shortly after has no relevance to the the current version of the game. I'm sure a lot of DMs have ignored the rule over the years, just as they are free to do today. That doesn't make it any less of a rule.

As I said, the relevence is obvious (none whatsoever).

 

[Shadowdweller]

As I said, the relevence is obvious (none whatsoever).

Wrong. It's part of the rules now. It's been part of the rules since the inception of the druid. There's plenty of myth and fantasy lore behind it - for those who honestly choose to investigate it. For example Rudyard Kipling.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson

For example, you seem to forget the things pointed out to you when you refer back to 1e, everything from the basics (like how proficiency worked) to the more advanced, like how the rule/fluff mechanics worked together.

Once again, we will use the MU as an example.

Why can't a MU wear armor?

Because-
"Furthermore, they can wear no armor and have few weapons they can use, for martial training is so foreign to magic-use as to make the two almost mutually exclusive."

That's right- MUs can't wear armor because they lack .... martial training.

So, what happens if you have dual-classed, human F/MU?

"The character may mix functions freely and still gain experience, although restrictions regarding armor, shield, and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to one or both classes. ... [Using the example of a fighter/magic user,] furthermore, the character can now carry (but not wear) armor and weapons not normally usable by magic-users, and resort to their use if the need arises and not be penalized in respect to experience as a magic-user, for he or she has already surpassed in the new class the disciplines of the former."

PHB, p. 33

Woah... wut? That's right, EVEN IF the character trains up and gets martial training, the character still can't wear armor while doing MU stuff (like casting spells) because REASONS!

Because the bit of fluff you keep looking at (spoil magic powers) for the druid is the same as the bit of fluff added to the MU part by Gygax- just extraneous verbiage, not as important as the actual tables and rules.

The MU couldn't wear armor because that was a class restriction. The Druid couldn't wear metal armor because that was a class restriction. Any attempts to retcon with a more modern thinking would necessarily fail.

(To be clear, the rules were not consistent- if you were a demihuman, the rules for edged weapons and armor fell aside, but the their armor rules stayed in place, also because of reasons; the influx of UA just made the bad rules worse)

This is now the strongest statement for what we've been saying. You bolded the wrong portion of the dual/multi class section.

"The character may mix functions freely and still gain experience,although restrictions regarding armor, shield, and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to one or both classes. ... [Using the example of a fighter/magic user,] furthermore, the character can now carry (but not wear) armor and weapons not normally usable by magic-users, and resort to their use if the need arises and not be penalized in respect to experience as a magic-user, for he or she has already surpassed in the new class the disciplines of the former."

That section clearly allows druid dual class PCs to wear metal armor, but with exp penalties prior to surpassing the old class(assuming the old class wasn't druid) and without penalty afterwards. The need just has to arise, which is a player decision. If the old class was druid and the new one is fighter, he can wear plate mail from level 1 on without an penalty at all, while still being a druid. He just couldn't fall back on his druid abilities without taking the armor off first.

I see no reason why that shouldn't or isn't the case with a single class druid willing to accept the consequences of not being able to use their magical abilities and take an exp penalty as set forth in the DM for aberrant class behavior.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Wrong. It's part of the rules now. It's been part of the rules since the inception of the druid. There's plenty of myth and fantasy lore behind it - for those who honestly choose to investigate it. For example Rudyard Kipling.

Err, I could be wrong, but I don't think Rudyard Kipling ever played Baldur's Gate.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Err, I could be wrong, but I don't think Rudyard Kipling ever played Baldur's Gate.

Apologies. Seems I wasn't fully following that thread of conversation.

 

[WaterRabbit]

So after some consideration, I think the best way to handle this is to treat Druids as non-proficient in metal-based armors. It bypasses all of the other considerations and it matches the simplicity of the 5e design.

 

[Ohmyn]

I'm sorry, I thought you were the OP. You know, the whole, "Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented"

Implement it better.

If you want to play the RAW, then Druids don't wear metal armor. If you want the Druids to wear metal armor, allow me to quote Sage Advice:

"If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. ... If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class."

See? If you don't like the rule, ask your DM change it.

And if you think it isn't a rule, as has already been pointed out to you as well, then just try doing this at an AL-standard table, or at a convention.

Good luck with your rules lawyering!

First off, I don't see how saying that the rule is poorly implemented means I need to provide a fix. If they wanted it to be impossible, there's a million and one ways that the rules developer could have changed it, and they shouldn't need my help to do this. For example, saying "Druids can never be proficient in metal armor" would have worked, but the SA points out that they still have the proficiency, so that doesn't seem to have been the intent.

Secondly, I can point out tons of places where AL tables use RAI instead of RAW, or consider SA to be official when they want it to be, but then say it's not when they don't want it to be. AL also hasn't updated its FAQ since early 2017, which the game has had more printings of the physical books in that time, and WotC has changed their ruling on how official Sage Advice is as of the latest published documents in 2019. For these reasons, pointing to AL is not a great argument for whether or not people are enforcing the RAW properly, especially since most people have a bias towards Druids (I'm not saying against Druids). In fact, I'd like to point out that it wouldn't be considered a house rule at an AL table to allow the Druid to wear metal because nothing in the game system inhibits the player's decision to have their character do so. People simply aren't familiar with how the lore of Druids has changed over the years, just as the lore of every other class has, so much so that they find certain Druid concepts to be outrageous, not knowing these concepts actually exist in the canon lore of the D&D worlds (murderous Druids that want to destroy most of nature and the creatures within it are a canon thing).

And let's not ignore what most of the Sage Advice said. First, the part you quoted seems to yet again be intentionally cutting out the sentence after that clarifies what they're saying. You know, this part: "As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign." The part you are quoting is a reminder to ask your DM so that you don't undermine their story, which is a reminder of what you should always do with every decision. If the Wizard class undermines their story, then no Wizard class for anyone. Whether or not you might undermine their story has nothing to do with RAW. The parts that are RAW are the other 80% of the Sage Advice response, which is that they are proficient in metal armor, they do not lack the ability to wear metal armor, that there is no penalty for wearing metal armor (so long as within their proficiency), and that nothing in the game system prevents them from doing so.

What it means to say "you're not going to break anything in the game system," is that there's nothing in the game system that prevents the Druid from performing the action. A Wizard without any form of multi attack doing two melee weapon attacks in a single attack action is breaking something in the game system. When a Paladin of Devotion lies or cheats, despite the fact that their tenets say they don't lie or cheat, they're not breaking anything in the game system by doing so, they just may face penalties. When a Monk plays as a murder hobo, even though their class description says that as a rule they are not murder hobos, nothing is broken in the game system if they behave like murder hobos, and in this case there are no penalties for doing so. Monks don't need permission to be murder hobos, and Paladins don't need permission to break their tenets, because the game system grants the player the ability to have their character do so.

Point is I'm not saying it's not a rule, but D&D has hard rules, and soft rules. "Do not" and "will not" are soft rules, and appear in a lot of explanations of the rules where implications are not specified, because they are not enforced in RAW unless there's some extra game system mechanic implemented that makes the action impossible or have consequences. The Paladin, yet again, is a perfect example of this. In no edition is the Paladin explicitly granted permission to go against any of their oaths or codes of conduct, nor to go against their class's alignment restriction. Their tenets and alignment restrictions are always presented in such terms, and then penalties are offered for what happens when a character chooses to ignore those restrictions. The rule saying Paladins of Devotion "Don't lie or cheat." does not prevent a Paladin of Devotion from lying or cheating, because this wording does not add anything to the game system that hinders the player's ability to have their Paladin character lie or cheat.

Now if the rules said, "Paladins of Devotion don't lie or cheat. If they attempt to, their commitment overtakes them, forcing them to speak the truth, or to openly declare any efforts to cheat.", that would be a hard rule, because now there's a mechanical implication being provided that removes the character's ability to perform the action. This is why it's important to acknowledge the distinction made in Sage Advice when it's says, "Druids don't lack the ability to wear metal armor." By just saying they "will not perform X action", that's a soft rule that does not prevent the character from having the ability to perform the action in the core game system.

If we're going to rule that "will not" is a hard mechanical limitation that prevents them from having the ability to do so, then does that mean any mind control automatically fails if it orders them to do so? If so, does this also mean that when it's said Paladins of Devotion "Don't lie or cheat", that they can never do it, and thus rules about them breaking their tenets are pointless, because the tenats dictate their behavior? Also, it doesn't say anything about doing so of their own free will, merely that they "will not". I guess the game system needs to grant mind controllers explicit authority to enable them to order a Druid to put on metal, otherwise the controlled Druid does nothing.

 

[5ekyu]

In a game, if the GM agrees the rules they are using is "druids will not wear metal armor" then that GM wont be mind controlling PC druids to fo do or forcing them into traps where "the only choice" is to do do. That would be violating the agreement, not unlike giving paladins a no-win alignment test in ye olde days.

In a game, if the player agrees the rules they are using is "druids will not wear metal armor" then that player wont opt for donning metal armor as an easier or quicker way around a challenge and will find other ways, other options.

So, in a game where both the players and the gm play by the rules they agree to, the difference between "will not" and "cannot" is nada.

For a forum sock puppet rager tho...