Why the heck are bags of holding so heavy?

[Jhulae]

Makes very little sense to me for an *empty* bag to weigh 60lbs. Game balance could be achieved simply by reducing the weight of it's contents (to 1/10th or 1/100th or what have you).

Really, when you have difficulty lifting an empty bag (Str 10 rogue, already moderately encumbered) it's rediculous.

And if they can magic it to hold so much, why can't they magic it to weigh as much as a normal bag, or sack?

First of all, it's not 'empty'. It's 'holding' an extradimensional space capable of keeping 3/4ths of a ton of items inside of it. Regardless of whether the extradimensional space has anything inside it or not, the bag 'holds' that space, and the 60 lbs is the cost.

Second, why's the rogue trying to carry a Type IV? The Handy Haversack or Type 1 would be better. Much less weight. The meatshie... er.. Fighter, who probably has a decent strength, should be carrying that. (Or the half orc. That's why they have a +2 to strength.) Or, it should be on the horse.

And, well, on your third point.. Because you don't get the ability to carry 1500 lbs for nothing. If the IV bag weighed only a few lbs, what would be the point of having any other type? Either you carry a lighter bag (with a smaller extradimensional space), or suck up the 60 lbs to carry, again, 1500 lbs worth of loot, dead bodies, crayons, whatever.

 

[frankthedm]

That works right up until you run into an old school DM like myself. Then you try that trick and get sucked into the astral Plane.

Agreed. Extradimensional space stacking is the one place I won't play nice.

Definitly.

Though I do suggest introducing some sort of other weight reducing magic item if carring an ACME brand item can result in hilarious tragedy.

The 2 lb. backpack
This enchanted backpack is a choice of paraniod adventurers across the planes. It negates the weight of up to 40 pounds of matter carried within it.
Craft wonderous item, caster level 3, Levitate. Costs vary...

 

[Notmousse]

But a bag that contains an extradimensional space capable of holding 1.5 tons of weight DOES make sense to you?

If we're going the 'it's magic' route then you have to wonder why the bag is so heavy in the first place. If 'it's magic' is in play then one could ask why the magic doesn't make the bag (which is actually a sack) weigh, say, as much as a normal sack.

If the magic is so powerful as to place things into a nondimentional space why can't it be light? Or what makes a nondimentional space so heavy? It lacks dimensions (in a round about way I suppose), but weighs a whole lot, for reasons I just can't logically see.

 

[Jhulae]

If we're going the 'it's magic' route then you have to wonder why the bag is so heavy in the first place. If 'it's magic' is in play then one could ask why the magic doesn't make the bag (which is actually a sack) weigh, say, as much as a normal sack.

If the magic is so powerful as to place things into a nondimentional space why can't it be light? Or what makes a nondimentional space so heavy? It lacks dimensions (in a round about way I suppose), but weighs a whole lot, for reasons I just can't logically see.

It weighs as much as it does for exactly the reason you can't see. It's the drawback of being able to carry so much. Money, honestly, isn't a drawback for adventurers, even in a 'normal' campaign. There are only two ways to balance the Type IV (and it's the one, I see, you're having the biggest hang up on). One is for it to be extremely expensive. The other is for it to be heavy (relatively).

What you want is to be able to carry your 1500 lbs of crap without any drawbacks. Sorry, there has to be *some* balance in the world. If you want a light bag, get a Type I. If you want to carry almost a ton of loot, suck up the 60 lbs.

 

[Notmousse]

First of all, it's not 'empty'. It's 'holding' an extradimensional space capable of keeping 3/4ths of a ton of items inside of it.

That's nondimentional. As a nondimentional space I wonder why it weighs so damn much.

'Second, why's the rogue trying to carry a Type IV?'

Because it's his. Playing in a LGS campaign I have no choice but to carry my own stuff, or leave it in the hands of someone that's not me, and may very well die holding my stuff. Furthermore as the skill monkey I'm the one that's going to be using the contents more often than not (loads of kits, rope, doggy treats for Koro, etc...).

'The Handy Haversack or Type 1 would be better.'

Which would be perfectly fine if I could go to the nearest shopkeep and say 'I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a rare, magical item today'. Unfortunately the LGS isn't quite so. And with the exception of perhaps the high magic campaigns would not expect magic item shops to be abundant, especially with treasure holding treasures.

'And, well, on your third point.. Because you don't get the ability to carry 1500 lbs for nothing.'

So finding, then using your share of the treasure to 'purchase' it at a hefty price is 'nothing'?

'If the IV bag weighed only a few lbs, what would be the point of having any other type?'

Cost, that a less experienced wizard could make one, that some people just don't need that much space, etc...

'Either you carry a lighter bag (with a smaller extradimensional space), or suck up the 60 lbs to carry, again, 1500 lbs worth of loot, dead bodies, crayons, whatever.'

Why is my question of 'why doesn't this make sense' is answered with 'shut your piehole! When I was a young'un that's the way we played, and we liked it! And we walked to the game uphill! Both ways! In the snow! And we liked it!'?

 

[Jhulae]

That's nondimentional. As a nondimentional space I wonder why it weighs so damn much.

'Second, why's the rogue trying to carry a Type IV?'

Because it's his. Playing in a LGS campaign I have no choice but to carry my own stuff, or leave it in the hands of someone that's not me, and may very well die holding my stuff. Furthermore as the skill monkey I'm the one that's going to be using the contents more often than not (loads of kits, rope, doggy treats for Koro, etc...).

'The Handy Haversack or Type 1 would be better.'

Which would be perfectly fine if I could go to the nearest shopkeep and say 'I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a rare, magical item today'. Unfortunately the LGS isn't quite so. And with the exception of perhaps the high magic campaigns would not expect magic item shops to be abundant, especially with treasure holding treasures.

'And, well, on your third point.. Because you don't get the ability to carry 1500 lbs for nothing.'

So finding, then using your share of the treasure to 'purchase' it at a hefty price is 'nothing'?

'If the IV bag weighed only a few lbs, what would be the point of having any other type?'

Cost, that a less experienced wizard could make one, that some people just don't need that much space, etc...

Well, my question to this is: Why'd you go for the Type IV right off the bat? A type I and a Haversack would have been half the money, and only weigh 20 lbs. If you had to 'search out' the Type IV (which I'm assuming from your post), you could have 'searched out' those other two items.

My guess, based on nothing else, honestly, is: Because it's the biggest and holds the most.

Looking at the prices of other magic items, 10k gold is *extremely* cheap for what the Bag of Holding IV does.

Since, in all honesty, 10k is so inexpensive considering the amount of loot a party would normally have to leave, but can now haul (such as statues, big artwork, ancient books, piles of silver, anything that fits in the bag but weighs less than 1500 lbs), the bag of holding completely pays for itself.

Since that's the case, hitting the adventurers in the only other place that can 'almost' count, the weight they have to carry, is the only other balancing factor the item has. Since other stronger PCs can carry it, or it can be placed in the cart, on the horses, whatever, even that becomes a small limitation outside of anything except combat.

The only other way to balance the item, if you want it to be 'light', is to make it cost something like 100k at least, otherwise, they become the *ultimate* item for an adventuring party to have multiples of because there is *no* other real drawback.

Arbitrary? Maybe, but it's the only thing that keeps it balanced.

 

[Notmousse]

In the LGCS you can't just ask for what you want. You get what you have access to, and at times it's the smaller stuff, but in this case it was the bigger stuff. I could either get the big bag, or go home without.

Thankfully my Initiative lets me drop it ASAP (assuming I don't roll low, +9 init.), but it would be nice were I able to just carry a single bag without feeling like I'm carrying a boat anchor.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If we're going the 'it's magic' route then you have to wonder why the bag is so heavy in the first place. If 'it's magic' is in play then one could ask why the magic doesn't make the bag (which is actually a sack) weigh, say, as much as a normal sack.

If the magic is so powerful as to place things into a nondimentional space why can't it be light? Or what makes a nondimentional space so heavy? It lacks dimensions (in a round about way I suppose), but weighs a whole lot, for reasons I just can't logically see.

Well why stop there? If magic is involved, why not say that the bag is in fact weightless or invisible or can't be punctured or any other myriad of "magic" things? You have to draw the line somewhere. I see this as an example of an item that is in all (but one) ways similiar to any other items of it's type (weight, size, volume, material it is made of), except of course having extradimensional space.

 

[KarinsDad]

Thankfully my Initiative lets me drop it ASAP (assuming I don't roll low, +9 init.), but it would be nice were I able to just carry a single bag without feeling like I'm carrying a boat anchor.

It would be nice if all found magical full plate was mithral, but it isn't.

I find it staggering how often people in our gaming community complain about the silliest of things.

 

[Jhulae]

Makes very little sense to me for an *empty* bag to weigh 60lbs. Game balance could be achieved simply by reducing the weight of it's contents (to 1/10th or 1/100th or what have you).

Really, when you have difficulty lifting an empty bag (Str 10 rogue, already moderately encumbered) it's rediculous.

Actually, this did get me thinking, and I've come up with (what I think anyway) is a fair and equitable rule.

A Bag of Holding is negligible by itself, and weighs either the weight of the amount of stuff crammed in it or it's maximum DMG weight, whichever is less.

So, using the Type IV, if you put 6 lbs of loot in it, the bag weighs 6 lbs. 30 lbs of loot, it weighs 30 lbs. 60 lbs of loot, it weighs 60 lbs. 600 lbs of loot, it weighs 60 lbs.

That keeps the flavor of the bag (letting you carry a lot of goods for a 'set' weight), but when it's empty or not exceeding the 'set' weight, it's lighter.

Probably not the houserule you want, but I think it's a very fair one.