D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

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No mechanics. Wizards are more powerful. They just are in the 5E game.
I am not disputing that they are, I am disputing that they should be

If power is what you want, that is what you should build and it is all you should build.
there are other considerations too, but that does not mean the other options have to be weaker

I would say this is not a reason this indicates you should buff meleers.
and I would disagree

But even if this is the argument it is fuindamentally not the same as buffing non-casters as in 5E meleer and non-caster are not the same thing and not even closely correlated.
only because 5e uses a spell for everything a character does outside of swinging a sword

There are only 3 non-caster classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue), only two of them are typically meleers, and even those classes have either caster subclasses (fighter) or magic subclasses (Barbarian).

You are down to very, very few builds if you want a non-magical build.
see above, only because 5e uses magic to explain everything that goes beyond 'a 5 year old could do it with some reliability'

Now, to go back to your statement - if we buff meleers then logically that would include many Clerics, Sword Bards, Hexblades, Bladesingers
we can argue what term to use for the subclasses that need buffing, if that is what you want to, but that is not really what was meant by this. If they benefit a little from whatever changes we introduce, I have no issue with that however.

The point is, I want a more level playing field across the board, there is no need to have casters as more powerful and it is detrimental to the game
 

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Whether or not wizards are "more powerful" depends on level and campaign. Fighters are the tortoise to the rabbit's hare, slow and steady reliably dealing out damage and contributing to the success of the team. Wizards can go nova and it's quite helpful but in my experience it balances out unless you only ever have 1-2 combats per long rest.

Fighters do deal damage relaibly and if the game was solely focused on combat I think this would be true. When you consider all 3 pillars Fighters can't hold a candle to Wizards potential, or for that matter Rangers or Paladins.

The only way this is not true is if you severely restrict spells available to Wizards. If you keep them limited to 2 spells per level by not providing scrolls as loot or the ability to make or purchase scrolls then you can keep this statement true through all 3 pillars by limiting their available spell selections. Even in this case though, Clerics and Druids will still outrun fighters by quite a bit.

Even then, you can set up scenarios where the fighter contributes more. My current group is level 20 and in 1 combat the wizard got off a much-needed exceptional meteor storm. But for the other fights? The fighter was significantly more effective.

Sure as DM you are literally god in the game. You can use anything you want - have an entire adventure in a non-magic area, and that is without even houseruling anything.
 

If people want mages to be all-powerful, then they should either be (a) NPCs and not PCs or (b) have their total amount of spellcasting brought down by a LOT: there should be a cost or limitation to it. Choose either flexibility of lower-powered magic or a limited amount of sheer power, but not both.
 

only because 5e uses a spell for everything a character does outside of swinging a sword

Or in some cases while you are swinging a sword.

If your focus is on buffing melee, why would it not include casters that melee with magic?

we can argue what term to use for the subclasses that need buffing, if that is what you want to, but that is not really what was meant by this. If they benefit a little from whatever changes we introduce, I have no issue with that however.

Ok but that does nothing for the power disparity among the classes.

If my bladesinger gets everything you give to the fighter to make her melee better in melee then this change brings the fighter no closer in power. If you don't give her this new "stuff" then your focus is not really about improving melee characters as is alleged.
 

I have read all of LOTR, multiple times and Gandalf is regularly called a "Wizard".
And yet if you understood the story at all, you'd know he wasn't a "wizard" in the D&D sense in the slightest! He's an angel in the D&D sense. This isn't up for debate. Claiming otherwise isn't a "valid opinion". It's just not understanding really clear stuff in LotR and Tolkien's writings.

If you think D&D wizards should be an angels and the servants of gods, well, fine, but say that.

You also suggested "magic is supreme" is a theme of LotR, when the EXACT OPPOSITE is the theme of LotR. This suggests a profound lack of comprehension of LotR. A book you yourself have pointed out is foundational to modern fantasy. It is. And theme is PRECISELY OPPOSITE to what you think it is. Again, this isn't up for debate - this is a basic issue - this is like you thinking that Romeo and Juliet is about how gang violence is AWESOME AND COOL, or how The Tempest is about BADASS WIZARDS and casting awesome spells!!! or something. God or Frankenstein is about how we should be doing the wildest and most insane experiments possible and nothing will go wrong!
 

If people want mages to be all-powerful,
Being more powerful and bieng all-powerful are not the same thing.

You can't have a PC that is all-powerful, that would break the game.

However, 40+ years of D&D history proves that you can have a very successful game with wide power disparities between PCs. I will point out we are focused on classes here, but through most of D&D history there is wide power disparity even between characters in the same class due to ability rolls and magic items, to include even in pregen characters for very successful published adventures.
 

Or in some cases while you are swinging a sword.
yes, which was your complaint about the term meleer in the first place

If your focus is on buffing melee, why would it not include casters that melee with magic?
for the reason you mention below
If my bladesinger gets everything you give to the fighter to make her melee better in melee then this change brings the fighter no closer in power.

I already said it is not about all meleer subclasses, and you are free to find a different term. I also said they might get a little of it, at no time did I say or agree to 'all'. The goal is to level the playing field, so not sure why you ignore that part and then just reiterate what I had already addressed. I am starting to understand your difficulty with the 'circular' concept...
 
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And yet if you understood the story at all, you'd know he wasn't a "wizard" in the D&D sense in the slightest! He's an angel in the D&D sense. This isn't up for debate. Claiming otherwise isn't a "valid opinion". It's just not understanding really clear stuff in LotR and Tolkien's writings.

He is a Wizard. Tolkein calls him a Wizard. He has many of the tropes of a Wizard. Claiming he is not a Wizard is just false.

I agree he is not a D&D Wizard because if D&D patterned itself after a LOTR Wizard it would be more powerful, not less.

Saying Gandalf was an Angel is not an argument for weakening D&D Wizards.

You also suggested "magic is supreme" is a theme of LotR, when the EXACT OPPOSITE is the theme of LotR. This suggests a profound lack of comprehension of LotR. A book you yourself have pointed out is foundational to modern fantasy. It is. And theme is PRECISELY OPPOSITE to what you think it is. Again, this isn't up for debate - this is a basic issue - this is like you thinking that Romeo and Juliet is about how gang violence is AWESOME AND COOL, or how The Tempest is about BADASS WIZARDS and casting awesome spells!!! or something.

Not through powers. The characters in LOTR persevere even though they lack the blatant power of the foes they face.

Frodo did not beat Sauron by swinging a sword hard enough to chop off his eye. We did not have to buff Frodo to where he could do as much damage as Sauron with Sting. He had to overcome the blatant disadvantage in observable power.
 

I already said it is not about all meleer subclasses, and you are free to find a different term.
Then it is not really about buffing meleers and has little or nothing to do with story or thematics. It is about giving non-casters a boost for no reason.

If we make a sword do more damage when we swing it, then logically everyone swinging it should do that extra damage. There is no logical reason that should be non-caster specific.
 

Fighters do deal damage relaibly and if the game was solely focused on combat I think this would be true. When you consider all 3 pillars Fighters can't hold a candle to Wizards potential, or for that matter Rangers or Paladins.

The only way this is not true is if you severely restrict spells available to Wizards. If you keep them limited to 2 spells per level by not providing scrolls as loot or the ability to make or purchase scrolls then you can keep this statement true through all 3 pillars by limiting their available spell selections. Even in this case though, Clerics and Druids will still outrun fighters by quite a bit.



Sure as DM you are literally god in the game. You can use anything you want - have an entire adventure in a non-magic area, and that is without even houseruling anything.

Depends on builds and priorities. If casters happen to have the right spell prepared and if they have the spell slot available and if the NPCs don't notice and take exception to the PC casting spells and if the DM doesn't enforce the rules like Charm Person only makes the NPC a friendly ally that knows they were charmed ... well given a lot of "ifs" a caster can surpass the fighter. Then again, if I wanted to be super skilled in out of combat that wasn't a caster I'd play a rogue. My first D&D 5E PC was a fighter/rogue just for that reason. With skilled and A wizard generally has to choose - are they going to be contribute to combat or out of combat; I've never seen one that excelled at both.

I never had an encounter in a non-magic area, although every once in a while a monster had an anti-magic cone. But in most session the non-casters contributed just as much as the casters, frequently more. Unless you have 1-2 combats between long rests that's been pretty standard in every 5E game I've played. Fighters and caster serve different roles but there is no way in my experience that wizards automatically contribute more to the effectiveness of the group. Without the fighters to protect them they're glass cannons.

The reason I bring Solasta into this argument is because they provide me with concrete information, actual numbers I can compare. For a while I played a lot of modules, it's kind of a nice half-brain-dead game. The wizard out-damaged the fighter in exactly 1 module where they were given a wand of fireballs early on and enemies were almost always grouped up.

As I said, PCs in my game are 20th level. I don't screw over the wizards, they are free to purchase whatever scrolls they want. The one complaint I hear from the gal playing the wizard? She's generally not as effective as the fighter in combat and if I focus fire on her she gets knocked out of combat quickly. Meanwhile I had another player ask to switch from their high level rogue to play something else because they knew they would always make just about any DC I threw at them because they had reliable talent. 🤷‍♂️

No one class or character, in my experience with multiple groups for the duration of 5E is that much more powerful than any other class. They each have strengths and weaknesses. Absolute 100% guaranteed balance is never going to happen but in 5E it's fairly close.
 

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