why touch attacks?

[Meatboy]

In my never ending quest to streamline 3e I recently got to spells, specifically disintegrate, and got to thinking about ranged touch attacks and why we have them. Touch attacks mean that you only have to "touch" a target to affect them so their only recourse for their AC is their Dextrity modifier, usually. The thing that I don't understand is that reflex saves also exsist and exsist for the sole purpose of being able to "dodge" certain types of attacks. So now we have two overlapping mechanincs that do exactly the same thing.

I propose that touch attacks should be removed and use reflex saves instead. But if anyone can suggest why it might be usefull to have both another perspective would be appreciated.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The only functional difference I can think of is that (if I remember correctly) concealment affects touch attacks, but not reflex saves. And personally, I don't think that's enough of a reason to keep touch AC. If anyone needs to justify the oddity of concealment not affecting touch attacks, say that touch attack spells have a built-in True Strike type effect.

 

[sheadunne]

Rogues become immune to touch attack spells in addition to reflex save spells. Great.

And what about critical hits? I know I like it when my Disintegrate can deal 2x damage because I rolled a 20.

Or how about armor doesn't effect Reflex saves but it does Touch AC?

Or that certain classes that have a low Reflex save can still have a high Touch AC?

Or that's it's easier to increase your Touch AC than it is your Saving Throws?

Or that Reflex applies to area effects but not single targets?

Reflex Saves and Touch AC are completely different mechanics representing two completely different things. Combining them makes no sense to me. It would make more sense to remove Touch AC and replace it with normal AC than it would be to use Reflex saves. Otherwise, you might as well use Reflex saves in place of all Range Attacks. Then rogues will really shine!

 

[JamesonCourage]

I replaced touch AC with Reflex saves in my game. Works well. As always, play what you like

 

[GMMichael]

The difference between touch attacks (any attack) and reflex saves are not always significant. Which is why 4th Ed made a big change in how saves work, and why D&D Next is using "Dexterity saves" instead of Reflex saves.

Meatboy, the starting point for your quest is to decide where the end result is. Do you want to have two slightly different mechanics that do slightly different things? Just one mechanic? What would it look like and how would it work?

The next step is to survey the terrain. Saving throws are like skills - they get better with levels. Armor Class isn't like a skill; you have it or you don't. In 3e, saves are like last-ditch efforts, and you never intend to use one. Contrast this with skills: Tumble is a skill you choose to use, and would seem appropriate for dodging Touch Attacks, right?

Additionally, different sides do the rolling for Touch attacks and saves. Touch Attack: attacker does the rolling. Reflex save: defender rolls. And they have different DCs: the target's Armor Class is a DC, and the caster's DC is, well, a DC.

It's pretty messy.

Enter my system. There are no saving throws. There are no DCs. Each side rolls, and the higher result wins. Either side can take 10 to expedite things. If you want to be better at dodging touch attacks, you take points in the Parry skill. If you want to be better (i.e. get a bonus) at casting your Disintegrate spell, you take points in Cast Disintegrate. Your Touch AC and your Reflex save are the same thing: a skill for dodging stuff.

 

[Meatboy]

Rogues become immune to touch attack spells in addition to reflex save spells. Great.

And what about critical hits? I know I like it when my Disintegrate can deal 2x damage because I rolled a 20.

Or how about armor doesn't effect Reflex saves but it does Touch AC?

Or that certain classes that have a low Reflex save can still have a high Touch AC?

Or that's it's easier to increase your Touch AC than it is your Saving Throws?

Or that Reflex applies to area effects but not single targets?

Reflex Saves and Touch AC are completely different mechanics representing two completely different things. Combining them makes no sense to me. It would make more sense to remove Touch AC and replace it with normal AC than it would be to use Reflex saves. Otherwise, you might as well use Reflex saves in place of all Range Attacks. Then rogues will really shine!

I'm sorry you lost me a few times here, so I hask that you please clear a few things up for me.

1. Critical hits and disintegrate? I only mentioned disintegrate because that, and other ray spells were what got me thinking about this in the first place. Plus as far as I am able to find even though they require an attack roll they can't critical.

2. Armor effects touch AC? Since when? It very specifically states in the rules that touch AC forgoes armor bonus, shield bonus and natural armor bonus. All other bonuses to armor do stack but those are no where near as abundant as the first three. Pluas as was mentioned above reflex save actually increases over levels, but with touch ac you have to aquire equipment to help boost it.

3. Reflex save and touch AC are completely different? I don't see this. To me they both represent a character trying use their quickness (dexterity) to get out of harms way. Reflex saves against ranged attacks for me is a different beast but not something I am entirely against. The problem i do see with that is rays or other touch attacks are all or nothing, they have the same effect regardless if a character gets blasted in the face or the little finger. Most ranged attacks could scratch a character or bounce off shields or any other way of "missing" or showing a low damage roll.

 

[Meatboy]

The difference between touch attacks (any attack) and reflex saves are not always significant. Which is why 4th Ed made a big change in how saves work, and why D&D Next is using "Dexterity saves" instead of Reflex saves.

Meatboy, the starting point for your quest is to decide where the end result is. Do you want to have two slightly different mechanics that do slightly different things? Just one mechanic? What would it look like and how would it work?

The next step is to survey the terrain. Saving throws are like skills - they get better with levels. Armor Class isn't like a skill; you have it or you don't. In 3e, saves are like last-ditch efforts, and you never intend to use one. Contrast this with skills: Tumble is a skill you choose to use, and would seem appropriate for dodging Touch Attacks, right?

Additionally, different sides do the rolling for Touch attacks and saves. Touch Attack: attacker does the rolling. Reflex save: defender rolls. And they have different DCs: the target's Armor Class is a DC, and the caster's DC is, well, a DC.

It's pretty messy.

Enter my system. There are no saving throws. There are no DCs. Each side rolls, and the higher result wins. Either side can take 10 to expedite things. If you want to be better at dodging touch attacks, you take points in the Parry skill. If you want to be better (i.e. get a bonus) at casting your Disintegrate spell, you take points in Cast Disintegrate. Your Touch AC and your Reflex save are the same thing: a skill for dodging stuff.

As an end result I think I will remove touch attacks from my game. They doesn't seem to be too many occasions where the difference is enough to be justifiable. Though you did bring up the main one I could see, that being where the DCs and rolls are in respects to attacker and defender.
I have been thinking about giving spells or abilities that are touch attacks two saves, but only if they normally get a save, with the first save being reflex (negates) , and the other save being the one normally associated with the attack.

 

[sheadunne]

I'm sorry you lost me a few times here, so I hask that you please clear a few things up for me.

1. Critical hits and disintegrate? I only mentioned disintegrate because that, and other ray spells were what got me thinking about this in the first place. Plus as far as I am able to find even though they require an attack roll they can't critical.

SRD
Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

2. Armor effects touch AC? Since when? It very specifically states in the rules that touch AC forgoes armor bonus, shield bonus and natural armor bonus. All other bonuses to armor do stack but those are no where near as abundant as the first three. Pluas as was mentioned above reflex save actually increases over levels, but with touch ac you have to aquire equipment to help boost it.

Max Dex for Armor would mean your Touch AC is lower than it could be. If you're wearing Plate Mail with a 16 Dex, you only get the +1 to AC, including Touch AC.

3. Reflex save and touch AC are completely different? I don't see this. To me they both represent a character trying use their quickness (dexterity) to get out of harms way. Reflex saves against ranged attacks for me is a different beast but not something I am entirely against. The problem i do see with that is rays or other touch attacks are all or nothing, they have the same effect regardless if a character gets blasted in the face or the little finger. Most ranged attacks could scratch a character or bounce off shields or any other way of "missing" or showing a low damage roll.

Ranged Touch Spells are Ranged Attacks. The only difference is that with a Ranged Touch Attack it doesn't matter if you hit them on the armor or not, the effect is the same. Think of it like using a Tazer versus using a grenade versus using a gun. With the gun, you have to penetrate whatever armor they are wearing (AC). With a grenade you just have to get close (Reflex Save) and with a Tazer you just have to connect with their body (Touch Attack). A Reflex save makes zero sense for a Tazer attack just as it doesn't make sense for a gun shot. There's no difference in D&D between shooting a bow and firing a disintegrate spell. They're bolts of wood or energy. You have to aim and fire. The reason you hit either touch or AC is a result of whether the effect of the ammunition doesn't need to pierce skin to be effective. Area effect spells, like fire ball, don't require aiming, you just pick a point and it blows up. Reflex is jumping for cover not dodging a single attack.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted