why touch attacks?

[sheadunne]

You were good on everything until this. Everything for #1 and #2 were straight from the SRD, and 100% correct. However, with #3 you strayed deeply into the realm of personal opinion, and then actually went against the SRD with your last statement (bolded).

So, also from the SRD: "These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks."

Although they are talking about area attacks, it clearly states a Reflex Save is a dodge, not just jumping for cover. Though personally I'd rule that it could be either a dodge or jumping for cover; with the caveat of not penalizing a character for having to make a save by saying they are now prone behind cover.

I did not say you don't dodge, I said, "dodging a single attack." It's a phrase not a single word. Just as the SRD quote is a phrase, "dodge area attacks."

In my opinion, Reflex Saves are similar enough to defending against touch attacks (avoiding or dodging to keep from being touched), that the mechanic works just as well; and has the benefit of a single resolution mechanic (if used as the OP is considering). Your opinion may differ, but opinion is not the same as fact or rules. I think it's only fair to be clear about an expression of opinion or fact.

Also, a Tazer is not a touch attack. It's either firing barbed contacts that need to hook into the skin (which armor, or even heavy clothing can defeat), or the contacts on the end of the Tazer need to be pressed directly against the target (and again, heavy clothing can defeat or mitigate the effect). In other words: Armor does provide protection, so therefore not a Touch Attack.

Potato/Potato. There is no difference between defending against touch attacks and defending against an arrow or bolt. There's a big difference between defending against an area effect and a touch attack.

As I said earlier, I have no problem with using AC instead of touch AC. I do have issue with using a Reflex save which creates all sorts of potential issues, aside from the fluff. Anyone is free to change the game however they like, doesn't effect me at all. I personally wouldn't make the change in that direction, not with evasion being plentiful and how easy it is to boost your saves. It would be rare for the gamers I play with to even need to roll (yes a 1 wouldn't be auto failure by then thanks to feats, spells, and magic items) against a reflex save by the time Disintegrate enters the picture. A touch attack still has meat through all levels and doesn't get ignored like saves do. I guess incorporeal creatures just got a lot less scary.

 

[Meatboy]

SRD
Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.



Max Dex for Armor would mean your Touch AC is lower than it could be. If you're wearing Plate Mail with a 16 Dex, you only get the +1 to AC, including Touch AC.



Ranged Touch Spells are Ranged Attacks. The only difference is that with a Ranged Touch Attack it doesn't matter if you hit them on the armor or not, the effect is the same. Think of it like using a Tazer versus using a grenade versus using a gun. With the gun, you have to penetrate whatever armor they are wearing (AC). With a grenade you just have to get close (Reflex Save) and with a Tazer you just have to connect with their body (Touch Attack). A Reflex save makes zero sense for a Tazer attack just as it doesn't make sense for a gun shot. There's no difference in D&D between shooting a bow and firing a disintegrate spell. They're bolts of wood or energy. You have to aim and fire. The reason you hit either touch or AC is a result of whether the effect of the ammunition doesn't need to pierce skin to be effective. Area effect spells, like fire ball, don't require aiming, you just pick a point and it blows up. Reflex is jumping for cover not dodging a single attack.

Cool. I was unaware of some of those rules and issues. I think criticaling on 2d6 per level might be overkill but cool all the same. Thanks for helping me understand where you were coming from.

I did not say you don't dodge, I said, "dodging a single attack." It's a phrase not a single word. Just as the SRD quote is a phrase, "dodge area attacks."



Potato/Potato. There is no difference between defending against touch attacks and defending against an arrow or bolt. There's a big difference between defending against an area effect and a touch attack.

As I said earlier, I have no problem with using AC instead of touch AC. I do have issue with using a Reflex save which creates all sorts of potential issues, aside from the fluff. Anyone is free to change the game however they like, doesn't effect me at all. I personally wouldn't make the change in that direction, not with evasion being plentiful and how easy it is to boost your saves. It would be rare for the gamers I play with to even need to roll (yes a 1 wouldn't be auto failure by then thanks to feats, spells, and magic items) against a reflex save by the time Disintegrate enters the picture. A touch attack still has meat through all levels and doesn't get ignored like saves do. I guess incorporeal creatures just got a lot less scary.

Yeah changing the mechanics, even in regards to making things simpler, seems to have plenty of unintended consequences. Which explains why I've been doing rewrites for a while now.

 

[epicbob]

The way I see it, Reflex saves and Touch AC can both exist if the former is reasoned into the following way.

Reflex saves should be just that. Your reflexes. A sudden event, such as a sprung trap, catches you by surprise and you must avoid it right now or suffer the consequences.

 

[Gomer212]

My only problem with this, other than the balancing which needs to be done between AC and Ref save, is the act of taking dice out of players hands.

Most players like to roll dice when they attack or cast spells. I would rather see reflex saves being replaced with attack rolls rather than the other way around. Players like the thrill and chill of seeing their lucky die land 1 or 20 rather than just watching the DM drop a die behind his screen and say "yeah.....uh.....he dodged it."

 

[epicbob]

Attack rolls? As in, instead of the DM rolling for success, the player does? With the same mechanics otherwise?

Personally, I've been wondering how it would work out if area attack spells, such as fireball, targeted Touch AC rather than Reflex. They are, after all, attacks and not effects.

 

[Meatboy]

Attack rolls? As in, instead of the DM rolling for success, the player does? With the same mechanics otherwise?

Personally, I've been wondering how it would work out if area attack spells, such as fireball, targeted Touch AC rather than Reflex. They are, after all, attacks and not effects.

Not sure how touch AC fireballs would work. Its not like you direct the energies of the blast to target specific targets. Targets just happen to be in the area when the spell takes effect. weapons get attack rolls because they need to aimed, fireballs and most spells just are.

 

[GMMichael]

3.5 attack roll fireballs:
Spellcaster makes his attack roll. All enemies in the area of effect defend with their touch ACs. If attack roll is higher, enemies take full damage. If attack roll is lower than touch AC, targets take half damage.

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/p-p-rpg/wikis/magic
Modos RPG attack roll fireballs:
The caster rolls his skill in casting Fireball, and takes penalties for range, target spread, and spell path. The defender(s) has to beat the caster's result with his Parry skill to avoid all damage. If he fails, he applies protection dice to reduce the fireball's damage. (Yes, it's much easier to avoid taking damage in this system. But characters have much fewer hit points, and protection dice can't reduce damage below one point per die.)

 

[epicbob]

Not sure how touch AC fireballs would work. Its not like you direct the energies of the blast to target specific targets. Targets just happen to be in the area when the spell takes effect. weapons get attack rolls because they need to aimed, fireballs and most spells just are.

I personally see it as taking the mechanics from the Meteor Swarm spell and simplifying them to : "Avoid with Touch AC or take full damage".