D&D 5E Why use initiative?

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Some time after I first tried DMing 5th edition, I ran into a video by Matt Colville in his Running the Game series on YouTube. In it he mentioned a really cool alternative to initiative that one of the creators of 5E came up with:

D4 for ranged. D8 for melee. D12 for spellcasting. +D6 to move and/or do something. The lower rolls go first. This process occurs at the beginning of each round.

There are a couple of things that this accomplishes extremely well. The more actions you make, the longer you will need to perform them. Also some actions are more complicated and take more time to perform.

Not only is this more immersive when players think about how long it will take them to do what they want to do, but it actively encourages players to have fun strategizing with each other during many rounds. It also adds a very welcome layer to the strategy because now players can actually try to get an earlier initiative on a given turn, and they have to think about the cost/benefit ratio for the things that they do. E.g. "how can I heal Rumlar, and do it quick?"

So IMO this alternative is not only mechanically superior but it is more immersive. It makes combat feel real.

 

[Morrus]

IIRC Mike Mearls proposed that on Twitter a few years ago.

(Ah yes, I wrote about it here in 2017!)

[UPDATED] Here's Mike Mearls' New D&D 5E Initiative System

In his AMA yesterday, WotC's Mike Mearls frequently referenced his dislike for D&D's initiative system, and mentioned that he was using a new initiative system in his own games. He later briefly explained what that was: "Roll each round. D4 = ranged, d8 = melee, d12 = spell, d6 = anything else...

www.enworld.org

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

IIRC Mike Mearls proposed that on Twitter a few years ago.

(Ah yes, I wrote about it here in 2017!)

[UPDATED] Here's Mike Mearls' New D&D 5E Initiative System

In his AMA yesterday, WotC's Mike Mearls frequently referenced his dislike for D&D's initiative system, and mentioned that he was using a new initiative system in his own games. He later briefly explained what that was: "Roll each round. D4 = ranged, d8 = melee, d12 = spell, d6 = anything else...

www.enworld.org

Thank you very much for that, Morrus. The strangest thing happened and when I went to find this information again, and find the game developer's name, I couldn't because it appears Matt Colville took that video down? It's nowhere in his Running the Game playlist and I couldn't search YT for it either.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes, this type of system has many variants and is a way of basically introducing speed factors without the modifiers being static, but replacing your d20 with other dice. IIRC I think there was even a UA on it called the Greyhawk Initiative variant, but I could be mistaken.

If you want to make it even more realistic, break up the action on the die rolls (in case you aren't already doing that).

For example, if a ranged PC shoots and then moves, they roll the d4 to find out when they shoot, and then roll the d6, adding it, to find out when the move. It breaks up the individual turns and makes combat more dynamic IME.

We play tested this for a bit, but ultimately when with our own Cinematic Initiative Variant, which does break up turns and keeps everyone engaged in combat more. If you're interested, the initial thread is here:

D&D 5E - Cinematic Initiative Variant (CIV)

So, after some discussion in my thread about what the combat round feels like/represents to you, I've done a lot of thinking about initiative and what might be a good alternative. A couple things I want to address first: 1. This is not a roll = time system. So, going on 20 or higher doesn't...

www.enworld.org

But it has been updated since then, so PM if you want more details.

EDIT: also you might want to change your threat title, since what your OP is about is still initiative, just not the standard d20 version. From the title I thought you were going to talk about really NOT using any sort of initiative

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Yes, this type of system has many variants and is a way of basically introducing speed factors without the modifiers being static, but replacing your d20 with other dice. IIRC I think there was even a UA on it called the Greyhawk Initiative variant, but I could be mistaken.

If you want to make it even more realistic, break up the action on the die rolls (in case you aren't already doing that).

For example, if a ranged PC shoots and then moves, they roll the d4 to find out when they shoot, and then roll the d6, adding it, to find out when the move. It breaks up the individual turns and makes combat more dynamic IME.

We play tested this for a bit, but ultimately when with our own Cinematic Initiative Variant, which does break up turns and keeps everyone engaged in combat more. If you're interested, the initial thread is here:

D&D 5E - Cinematic Initiative Variant (CIV)

So, after some discussion in my thread about what the combat round feels like/represents to you, I've done a lot of thinking about initiative and what might be a good alternative. A couple things I want to address first: 1. This is not a roll = time system. So, going on 20 or higher doesn't...

www.enworld.org

But it has been updated since then, so PM if you want more details.

EDIT: also you might want to change your threat title, since what your OP is about is still initiative, just not the standard d20 version. From the title I thought you were going to talk about really NOT using any sort of initiative

While I love looking at these kinds of things and will gratefully check out the thread you've referenced, I have to admit that a lot of the other things that people propose sound too noodly to me, and appear as if they might slow the pace of combat too much. The last thing I want is for an encounter to be a slog.

E.g. when you bring up influencing your initiative more than once in a turn by essentially breaking up your turn into multiple turns during a round, that sounds awesome and immersive. But it also sounds pretty noodly and like it would add unwanted bloat to each round. Not to mention that it could be a headache to keep track of.

 

[Nebulous]

While I do like this in concept, it doesn't seem like it would be any faster, but rather longer, than default initiative. I would have to playtest it. Have others tried it out? What was your experience?

 

[DND_Reborn]

While I love looking at these kinds of things and will gratefully check out the thread you've referenced, I have to admit that a lot of the other things that people propose sound too noodly to me, and appear as if they might slow the pace of combat too much. The last thing I want is for an encounter to be a slog.

E.g. when you bring up influencing your initiative more than once in a turn by essentially breaking up your turn into multiple turns during a round, that sounds awesome and immersive. But it also sounds pretty noodly and like it would add unwanted bloat to each round. Not to mention that it could be a headache to keep track of.

It really isn't that difficult to track, and I encourage groups to try those variants for a few sessions if the idea appeals to you. If it doesn't then no worries.

Each person has a level of complexity when it comes to such things they are most comfortable with:

Side Initiative (no reroll)
Individual Initiative (no reroll)
Side Initiative (reroll each round)
Individual Initiative (reroll each round)
Using Speed Factors
Using Variable Dice (the OP)
By Actions (breaking up the OP by dice rolls)
Cinematic Initiative
and beyond...

While I do like this in concept, it doesn't seem like it would be any faster, but rather longer, than default initiative. I would have to playtest it. Have others tried it out? What was your experience?

There's a learning curve, of course, but you get standard "action sets" so you will know which dice to use quickly.

Whether the benefit is worth the slight time increase is up to you. Frankly, we've been using cinematic initiative for over a year now and it goes really fast for us at this point, keeps players more engaged, is more realistic; and at this point I would never go back to regular initiative.

 

[dave2008]

I never tried it but it has always bothered me that ranged actions had the lowest modifier. That makes no sense to me, you need time to aim with a ranged attack that you don't with melee and it takes longer to get to its target! I would do it like:

d6 melee
d8 ranged
d10 magic

and maybe +d4 if you include movement.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

How do things that improve your initiative work? Like Alertness. Do you just reduce your total value by 5?

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

While I do like this in concept, it doesn't seem like it would be any faster, but rather longer, than default initiative. I would have to playtest it. Have others tried it out? What was your experience?

DND Reborn nailed it on the head here. It really is entirely up to the players and how accustomed they are to using the rules.

The part where they're actually rolling becomes second nature and takes no time it all. The only time consuming part is the strategy but really it's just segregating the strategic dialogue more to the beginning of the turn, instead of players stopping and strategizing more often mid turn.