raniE
Adventurer
Huh?
Why We Should Work With WotC
Thourne
Hero
I think it was to finish with , "you end with 100 dollars." as the definition of flat but early post.
Just a guess
Posted by mistake. I was trying to do the math, realized I was missing some needed info, and must have tapped "post" without meaning to.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Hmmmmm.
But what is a lifetime gamer? Is it something only a 40+ y/o can be? Or is it something anyone can become? Because it seems to me it's the latter. Many of the gamers you're seemingly dismissing as "casual", who have maybe only played D&D for 3-5 years will, in 5, 10, 15, etc. years be still playing D&D or RPGs. Or at least they will be if WotC doesn't drive them away and make the hobby seem like it's dreadful. Some won't, I'm sure, but that's no more or less true in 2023 than 1983.
Like, when I had played D&D for 5 years, I knew I was a "lifetime gamer", but someone who'd been playing D&D for say, 20 years at that point would likely have seen me as some dumb upstart who didn't know anything about RPGs and was totally "casual". Indeed that was suggested to me almost as soon as I got on the internet lol.
This is true, but I don't think it's as simple as that. WotC estimates 30-50m active D&D players, but there are only 13m even registered accounts on DDB. That means the vast majority are playing with physical books or similar.
And instead of FLGSes mattering, stuff like Kickstarter matters. Kickstarter helps D&D. Loads of nerdy/alternative people (i.e. those most likely to play D&D, still) use Kickstarter a ton if they can afford it. And if you keep seeing D&D stuff on KS, you keep thinking of D&D as this important fun thing. Yet WotC's actions may significant decrease that, and even if they don't, it's not going to be for lack of semi-accidental trying. And de facto, KS and the like fills a very similar role to the old FLGS in terms of supporting D&D.
raniE
Adventurer
I don't agree at all. The core rulebooks are still the things that sell the most, even for companies known more for their adventures than for any other content. With more "casual" players, a focus on the PHB is even more important, because that's the extent of what many will buy. That's why it's always been the top seller. And core rulebooks were never the only major product sold. TSR, including TSR under WotC was selling settings, adventures, player option books etc. None of them sold as well as the PHB. The same is true for other game companies that sell core books and adventures, setting books etc. The core books are always the best sellers.
Dancey wasn't only talking about lifetime gamers either, he was talking about getting new players and locking them in the D&D/D20 bubble. To get someone into the bubble to buy a core book, you need network effects. You need other people to play the game, so the person has people to play with, because RPGs are social games (despite the occasional foray into single player stuff). So, to get the person who buys only a core book playing, you need the people who buy nothing at all and rely on someone else owning the books, and the whales who buy a lot of stuff. Third party content keeps whales interested, whales having all these books keep the players who buy nothing in the game, and thus you have a group which our potential new player can join, and then he can buy his PHB. Without the third party stuff, the whale has an easier time getting out of the bubble to other games. Then he starts buying those instead of, or in addition to, the D&D stuff. The player who doesn't buy any books follows the whale to whatever game he decides to play, and now our potential customer for the PHB has one less possible D&D group to join, and one more possible non-D&D group to join.
rcade
Hero
Was there ever a period when most players got their D&D books from gaming stores? Even in the 1980s when D&D was smaller there weren't that many stores selling RPG products. We had to look for them at bookstores, comic book stores, toy stores and even hobby stores like Michael's. The place I got the Monster Manual in 1980 was a train hobbyist store at a mall.
Thourne
Hero
Heck, I got my copy of Dieties and Demi-gods at Carson Pierre Scott
Pirating, free sites, and sharing.
50% of my groups haven't bought a book, WOTC, 3PP, or otherwise.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I think too many people are blinded by appeasement, personally.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
That's a great question.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I got the actually the vast majority of RPGs books not from the three FLGSes I was aware of in London (Orc's Nest, Playing Games, and Leisure Games), but briefly from Games Workshop, and then mostly from bookshops and particularly from Virgin Megastore, which was kind of what it sounded like, and amazingly, until sometime late in the 1990s, had an RPG section, which varied in size and layout, but very much existed. Actually Virgin Megastore probably sold us the majority of RPG books we owned. Mostly the Oxford Street one for us, but even smaller Virgins had some, like the one in Oxford itself (not to be confused with Oxford Street lol), which I really remember has having a bunch of horror RPGs, including the now-forgotten Dark Conspiracy.
Virgin Megastores stopped having an RPG section entirely in what, like, 1997? 1998? I have a feeling it very briefly came back later.
After that, we did rely on FLGSes for a while.
Similar Threads
