Why WILL you switch?

  • The class, multi-class, and prestige class of the 3E will be revamped into a more coherent whole.
  • The idea of roles and the subdivision of levels into heroic/paragon/epic.
  • That you can incorporate training from other classes.
  • The powers of the classes will be more balanced.
  • The elimination of the vancian magic system.
  • The encounter and trap system.
  • But the best reason of all is that the mechanic of 4E will be clearer and more transparent.
 

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Darth Cyric said:
Just as a counter-thread to those giving their reasons for not switching to 4e, I might as well make a thread for those of us that DO plan to move on to 4e, and why you are making the switch.

{redirected from a "Not switching thread"}

Well, I am switching for a variety of reasons:

1) My children are just entering the age range that I find acceptable for introduction to table-top role-playing. We have been role-playing informally since they were babies, but now they are ready for a game such as D&D and they are curious to learn more. The new edition is an excellent entry point for them.

2) I'm tired of 3.5. It's cumbersome, awkward, and difficult to learn. Prep time is ridiculous if, like me, you are a meticulous planner and record keeper. The introduction of rule variant upon rule variant and an endless stream of "options" books has made the game even more of a miasma. I'm not saying that 4.0 will not become that same mass of endless options in the future, but at least now I can get in on the ground floor.

This is an opportunity for me to cleanse my palate and start fresh. It may not be the same D&D game that I have been used to playing, but it will be fun, of that I'm sure.
 

Things tend to become better with time and experience I think and that goes with gaming (that's what it is after all) as well. In the past, the newer editions were far better than their predecessors, in spite of all the flaming arguments against them. I expect the same thing to happen with 4E.

After all, personally i think 3.5e has become a swirling chaos of colliding infant ideas that have brought nothing but imbalance to the game. Even if it takes a few house rules and "tuning" to refine 4E to my taste, from the changes I have seen till now, it's gonna be much easier to start from 4E rather than 3.5, in order to achieve smooth, balanced and fun sessions with as less rules-digging and preparations as possible.

But even if 4E proves to be crap, so what? I'll switch back to 3.5e or another RPG system or whatever. It's not a dogma that one must abide by, it's just a game.
 
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3E was a pain in the neck to DM for, and it looks like 4E is going to improve upon that.

For the most part, I like the cosmology changes.

The basic game mechanics and math of 4E look a lot cleaner, simpler, and better designed, not to mention more transparent to players and DMs.

The magic item system is an improvement.

5 vs 4 combats seem like they would be more fun than 5 vs 1 combat.

Races and Monsters have more design freedom.

I like the idea of Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies

I like Fighters being able to fight differently based on weapon choice, and I like Wizard Implements and Traditions.

Really, other than a few minor complaints and legacy issues that seem to be popping up now and then, 4E seems to be a complete improvement over 3E so far.
 

The guys above have covered many of the points that I agree with: (Psi)SeveredHead, Howndawg, Zinovia, Dragonblade, etc... I am not good at compiling lists like that so I will just agree with them!
However the MAIN reason I am switching is 'cos it is new shiny stuff. I may go back (I really doubt it) but I gotta have the new stuff. I love trying new things and rarely stick to one set of rules for long before I switch or heavily house-rule it.
Bring me a new edition or at least .5 edition every 2 years ;)
 

Mourn said:
PDF any book you own before selling it. That's how I retained a bunch of my old 2e stuff, since I needed money, but wanted the books to delve for inspiration.
Not that we endorse illegal activity on these boards.....
 

Most of my reasons have been stated in threads I've started here recently but hey, I'm not averse to repeating myself :)

To sum up, basically it's as if the current group of designers read my mind and applied all my ideas to the new edition. Pretty much everything they've done or said, I've agreed with or thought was a great idea. For me it's a no-brainer to pick up 4E as it really is the ruleset I've been waiting for, for a long time.

On reading the responses to the "Why won't you switch?" thread, I was surprised to see that a lot of people felt insulted by the previews and the whole, "Your game is broken," spiel. Although I can see where they're coming from in the sense of their reasoning, I can't honestly say I feel that reasoning is logical and justified.

I say this because I've had the opposite reaction to their spiel and marketing. What they've been saying is one of the reasons I'm in the 'fanboy' camp.

One other thing that really cemented my already firm decision to pick up the new edition was the constant use of the basic concept of, "Does this rule enhance the fun of the game? Why is this rule here? What is it's function and purpose? Does it add or subtract to the game? What can we do to make it more fun and easier to run?"

This set of questions I honestly don't believe have ever really been a core part of designing any of the new editions. They might have been in the background as absent thoughts or occasionally have popped up with one of the more glaring, game-bogging rules, but other than that, were an after-thought rather than the primary motivating factor for change.

I've heard accusations that 4E is change for the sake of change and I couldn't disagree more. Other editions have been far and away more so than this one, given the above core philosophy for changing any rule.
 

jaer said:
- Reduction of the 15 minuted work day. As a DM, I really hate when my players blast away through 2 or 3 combats without regard for their resources and then "whoops! time to teleport home or use the Rope Trick to rest." I can't make every dungeon 'time sensitive.' They've been bitten by leaving early and coming back, but I can't do it most of the time.

I think this is the one thing that I found annoying in 3e. Players adventuring for about 15-30 minutes or so game time, then finding a safe room to sleep 8 hours and then rinse-wash-repeat. Damn, but that was cheap and exploitative. Maybe it's good that Vancian magic is getting the boot, and put those bad habits to rest (though maybe not depending on how powers recharge).

I may switch, I haven't made up my mind yet. Some changes I don't like, mostly flavor stuff, as well as classic classes/races being left out of the PHB and being promised in a later PHB. That sort of marketing strategy leaves a bad taste in my mouth. OTOH, some of mechanics sound intriguing.
 

Orius said:
I think this is the one thing that I found annoying in 3e. Players adventuring for about 15-30 minutes or so game time, then finding a safe room to sleep 8 hours and then rinse-wash-repeat. Damn, but that was cheap and exploitative. Maybe it's good that Vancian magic is getting the boot, and put those bad habits to rest (though maybe not depending on how powers recharge).

I may switch, I haven't made up my mind yet. Some changes I don't like, mostly flavor stuff, as well as classic classes/races being left out of the PHB and being promised in a later PHB. That sort of marketing strategy leaves a bad taste in my mouth. OTOH, some of mechanics sound intriguing.

My players going through Grasp of the Emerald Claw trying their darnest to rock it out in one session. They got half-way through (room 27 of 41) before needing to rest, but they did with a good mix of wands, eternal wands, scrolls, reserve feats and me allowing PCs to use Second Wind (1/4 hp back if your below 1/2 hp) and facing many foes that were way below CR (6 1st level PCs). However, without this liberal mix, I doubt they would have made it so far... (FYI: 1 ranger/rogue, 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 artificer, 1 knight, 1 sorcerer).

As to the marketing strategy: I too am angered by the lack of certain classes (bard, druid) in the initial roll out, but I'm usually impatient about such things.
 

Kzach said:
One other thing that really cemented my already firm decision to pick up the new edition was the constant use of the basic concept of, "Does this rule enhance the fun of the game? Why is this rule here? What is it's function and purpose? Does it add or subtract to the game? What can we do to make it more fun and easier to run?"

This set of questions I honestly don't believe have ever really been a core part of designing any of the new editions. They might have been in the background as absent thoughts or occasionally have popped up with one of the more glaring, game-bogging rules, but other than that, were an after-thought rather than the primary motivating factor for change.
That's a good point, and I am not sure those questions have ever been applied to designing a ruleset in quite that way before. Rules are important and necessary, but finding the sweet spot that balances ease of play, ease of GM'ing, and verisimilitude is tricky. Rules should give you options, as both a GM and a player. They should work smoothly together to minimize the GM as adversary mentality. "Armed with my Knowledge: The Rulez skill, I coerce the GM into doing things my way yet again. Bwahahaha".

Too few options for character customization (1E, 2E), and each character of the same class plays the same. Players also feel like they ought to be able to do something in a given situation, but there are no mechanics to cover it. A good GM can wing it. However there isn't time to consider long term game balance implications when you are adjudicating a decision on the fly. Therefore you risk having a "Sure you can do that" one-off maneuver becoming something the players do all the time to gain a tactical advantage. There are also those GM's who just say no, and don't let you do anything that's not in the rules.

I hated my one session of 2E because I'd played Rolemaster for years at that point, and the humble Perception skill was not in D&D. We were ambushed with no chance to react or notice the bad guys. I want at least the *chance* to see them. We were awake and aware, but no, they jumped us. It was very frustrating for me since I was accustomed to being able to make a perception check. Not having that, and other options on what my character could do, was painful.

Too many options for NPC's (3E) results in monsters that aren't playable out of the book and take a lot of prep time to use. Why do monsters need feats? Or Use Rope skill? in my opinion using the same rules to create NPC's and PC's bogs down the GM, and causes power gamer types to start reverse engineering NPC's that they encounter. It bogs down the game for our improvisation-heavy DM, and I honestly don't think it adds anything to the fun. Why does a monster that will live for 8 rounds need 20 options on what it can do in combat? That makes it hard for the DM to run it.

Too many options for PC's (Rolemaster, 3E with too many supplements) results in a game that is hard to learn, confusing, and often unbalanced. It also makes people waste skill points in something that may only be actually utilized once or twice in the entire lifespan of the character - like Forgery skill. Rolemaster at least had a separate set of secondary skill points that could only be spent on fluff and esoteric skills. D&D pretty much required dumping all your points into the most vital skills needed by your character. Sure you *could* put points in Play Instrument if you aren't a bard, but why spend your precious limited skill points on that? If I want my character to be a circus entertainer turned adventurer, then I should have a set of background skills to match my history, but the current skills system mixes up essential and fluff skills and severely restricts the number of points you get. It takes away the fun of picking interesting skills.

Some of the fluff regarding the new system bugs me, and it will create difficulties if we want to continue to use our current campaign world. I'm also concerned that there are a lot of changes being made to the rules still. It seems they are still in flux. To borrow the term from software, we're still in either late alpha, or closed beta testing. It seems all too plausible that we'll be seeing a 4.5 edition that fixes issues discovered during open beta testing with 4.0 after it's release.

Even so, if the mechanics live up to the promises and tantalizing glimpses that we've had so far, and if they've managed to find that sweet spot between too many choices and not enough, while still keeping the game fun to run for the DM, then I'll be all over 4E. At the very least, we'll give it a thorough playtest.
 

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