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Why WOTC shouldn't have gotten rid of the Dungeon and Dragon magazine

Do you want Dungeon and Dragon magazines to return to print?

  • I agree!!! Give me my D&D buffet each month! Bring back Dungeon and Dragon!!!

    Votes: 203 70.2%
  • I don't agree!!! I like the DI and the weekly release of content!

    Votes: 14 4.8%
  • I am waiting to see what the paid online magazines are like.

    Votes: 33 11.4%
  • I don't really care about either. I just want my PHB, DMG and MM, leave me alone :P

    Votes: 39 13.5%

JoeGKushner

First Post
I didn't vote.

I don't think the DI is wooing people but I was a fan of the old print magazines. I'm still getting used to the online format. So far it's not working for me personally. I also agee with others who've stated that with 4e on the horizon, it's not a priority for WoTC.
 

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Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
Uzzy said:
Nothing has been done so far to take advantage of the new format, which leads me to believe that the change was pointless.

I don't agree with WotC's decision, but I do see a few points to it.

First and foremost, the use of the Dragon and Dungeon brand names to bring subscribers in to the new digital initiative. The names carry a lot of weight, so having those names put to use is imperitive.

Second, it cuts out the "competition." Why should WotC license their products out to other companies to use to make a profit when they can make the profit themselves? Granted, they did get licensing fees of some sort, but they must figure the profits they could generate would be greater. Also, why have dollars go to another company at all? Still, the costs would be minimal since they would have to pay freelancers for online articles anyway, and since they wouldn't have to deal with printing costs. More profit for WotC, less use of WotC's IP by other companies to draw dollars away.

What WotC didn't count on here was that Paizo would take the RPG world by storm with Pathfinder! So the competition still exists, and this is a good thing. Hopefully WotC will realize that they need to step up the game too.

I see WotC's decisions to create 4e and to use the Dragon and Dungeon brand names while killing the mags as a business decision. I don't agree with it, but I see some valid points from WotC's financial point of view. Competition is cut out, brand name integrity is improved (Book of Erotic Fantasy anyone?).

The fallbacks from WotC's point of view are potential new competition and splitting the fan base. While there will undoubtedly be more competition, nobody is as big of a powerhouse as WotC, and the D&D brand name carries so much weight that people will buy. While not all naysayers will buy 4th edition, a great many will. Plus, a new generation of gamers will be getting into the hobby as well.

So yeah, it's a sound business model, and though we may disagree with its implementation, there is little we can do about it save to vote with the almighty dollar and voice our opinions. While I am extremely saddened to see Dragon and Dungeon go, I will always have the memory of those two fine magazines with me.

The universe abhors a vacuum. As we have said goodbye to our old, dear friends, we have met new friends along the way. This too is good, and in those regards, the change has benefited the RPG industry.
 

Festivus

First Post
Dragonhelm said:
What WotC didn't count on here was that Paizo would take the RPG world by storm with Pathfinder! So the competition still exists, and this is a good thing. Hopefully WotC will realize that they need to step up the game too.

As a slightly off topic question, is Pathfinder really doing all that well? Or is it that a large number of former Dragon and Dungeon subscribers simply elected to convert to Pathfinder because it was the best deal Paizo offered.

I know I am in that camp, and once my free issues are up, I will probably be dropping Pathfinder (I love it but it's too expensive for me). Another look at Pathfinder in a year would be very telling of how well it really is doing in terms of competition.
 

delericho

Legend
Festivus said:
As a slightly off topic question, is Pathfinder really doing all that well? Or is it that a large number of former Dragon and Dungeon subscribers simply elected to convert to Pathfinder because it was the best deal Paizo offered.

I know I am in that camp, and once my free issues are up, I will probably be dropping Pathfinder (I love it but it's too expensive for me). Another look at Pathfinder in a year would be very telling of how well it really is doing in terms of competition.

I don't know how well Pathfinder is doing, but I am certainly in the camp who took up the Pathfinder subscription as my transition option. Were it not for 4e being on the horizon, I would have no hesitation in extending my subscription, though.

However, if Pathfinder switches to 4e and I do not (or, less likely, the reverse), I will be dropping my subscription. That's not a statement on Pathfinder's quality, but it just won't be worth it if I have to do conversion work.
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
delericho said:
My big worry is that in a few years we'll look back and see that killing Dragon and Dungeon was the turning point that led to the demise of the game as a whole. It removes the D&D presence from the news-stands, it generated a huge amount of anti-WotC feeling online, and it removed one of the prime venues for new writers to break into the industry.

What newsstands? I hadn't seen D&D for sale at a newsstand of any kind, either on the street corners, train stations or at the airports, for a long, LONG time. The D&D magazines could really only be found at very large book retailers like Borders or at specialty game stores and hobby shops. Most of the copies of the magazines that were being sold, I'd wager, were to people who sought them out already. They weren't attracting new customers, but reinforcing existing ones.

And to be honest, I prefer Pathfinder and the Dungeon Mastery modules over Dungeon and Dragon, anyhow. I find more usable material within their pages. And new authors appear there regularly (Paizo just had their next big RPG star contest, for example). Honestly, though...new authors appear on places like RPG.Net and ENWorld as much as anywhere else...folks like Wulf Ratbane, Piratecat and Sepulchrave are fine examples.
 

Scribble

First Post
Dragon Magazine in paper format was a great read... But that's all it was. :)

I have a bunch of issues of Dragon and Dungeon... But I haven't been able to bring myself to get a subscription for years because the number of times I've actually USED the info in them can probably be counted on my fingers.

Here's how things usually went:

Read through Dragon.

Think... "Hey that looks cool, I'll need to sue that sometime."

Place Dragon on shelf.

Forget about that rule, or loose track of where it came from.

Look at shelf full of Dragons and think about the daunting task of pulling the issues down and trying to find the one that had the specific article I wanted... God forbid I wanted to use multiple things from different magazines... Which would mean more searching and more stuff to carry to games...

Decide it's not worth it, and use something else.

I'm looking forward to a searchable archives. (And an archives in general)
Rules that integrate with the Encounter/Character Generators.
Being able to print out what I want, when I want it.
More types of content (such as flash, or audio or video...)
Able to be viewed anywhere I have a net connection without carrying a magazine around or drawing attention to the fact that I'm actually slacking off.

I'm also guessing there will be another added unseen benefit... If you say, decide to subscribe in a year... ALL of the back issues will still be available to you in the archives. (Ask Paizo to do that with a paper subscription...)

Sure I'll miss READING dragon on the can. But I'll be much happier being able to actually USE it in my games.


It's funny. So many people were begging for PAIZO to release another Dragon CD compendium...
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
Festivus said:
As a slightly off topic question, is Pathfinder really doing all that well? Or is it that a large number of former Dragon and Dungeon subscribers simply elected to convert to Pathfinder because it was the best deal Paizo offered.

I don't know, but I do know that they've already plans for the third adventure path (read: Issue 13 and on, the 3rd installmeant is the current one) and for a lot of related products for the game worlds (including a hardcover Campaign Setting).

And it seems that they're quite happy with how Pathfinder's doing. I don't think that they'd be so enthusiasitic if 90% of their "sales" were magazine transitions with no one new getting in.

I know I am in that camp, and once my free issues are up, I will probably be dropping Pathfinder (I love it but it's too expensive for me).

I love it, too. I'm not one of the transition customers (as my Dragon Subscription ran out two months before the Final Issue). I think I'm getting a good value for my money (and since the very event that made them start Pathfinder made me stop buying Wizards stuff, I can afford it with lots to spare)
 

delericho

Legend
WizarDru said:
What newsstands? I hadn't seen D&D for sale at a newsstand of any kind, either on the street corners, train stations or at the airports, for a long, LONG time.

Comparing the stats of the number of subscribers vs the circulation as a whole, it must have been on sale somewhere. In any case, even a small newsstand presence is better than no newsstand presence - and an online presence isn't really the same; people are unlikely to 'stumble across' the online Dragon and Dungeon the way they might the physical versions.

And to be honest, I prefer Pathfinder and the Dungeon Mastery modules over Dungeon and Dragon, anyhow. I find more usable material within their pages. And new authors appear there regularly (Paizo just had their next big RPG star contest, for example).

Maybe. It doesn't strike me as being as effective a means for finding new talent. Of course, I might be wrong - it does occasionally happen. :)
 

Scribble

First Post
delericho said:
Comparing the stats of the number of subscribers vs the circulation as a whole, it must have been on sale somewhere. In any case, even a small newsstand presence is better than no newsstand presence - and an online presence isn't really the same; people are unlikely to 'stumble across' the online Dragon and Dungeon the way they might the physical versions.

Maybe. It doesn't strike me as being as effective a means for finding new talent. Of course, I might be wrong - it does occasionally happen. :)

Eh... I don't know if I agree with this anymore.

Most of the time now, if I'm looking for info on something, the first thing I turn to is the web. Google = my friend who knows just about everything.

I'm guessing the majority of new players will goto Google first to find out what D&D is...
 

the Lorax

First Post
DI has really fallen flat.

I have not recieved 2 Dungeons and 2 Dragons worth of material since the last print editions, much less 1 Dungeon and 1 Dragon.

They have to get out of the mindset that some things aren't worth the "space" that would be dedicated to them in a print product.

The articles have been nice but not exciting.

Graz'zt - love it, but the PrC is still on the weak end of things and the pitiful additional NPCs are weak and not even detailed.
Devil Aristocracy - nice, but the articles from any ONE of Dragons 75, 76 or 91 had more material, and they had to contend with page space limitations. The handful of Dukes detailed is laughable actually.
Iggwilv - nice safe rewrite, with no real attempt to tweak the monster listing to make the theme a bit better - sheesh, just throwing a Fiendish template on everything would've helped.

All they have to do is throw in some 4e crumbs and they may well have many people eating out of their hands, but they cant even manage that - It would've been so much better for them to extend Paizo's hold on Dungeon and Dragon so that they would have 2-3 magazines worth of material ready on Day One, and then could dribble out articles little bit at a time aftewords.

Oh well, the milk is spilled...
 

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