Wildshape + Animal Growth =/= huge size

[Power_Munchkin]

hm

So what you're saying is that wildshape is NOT a "magical effect that increase size"?

In other words, a polymorphed cleric casting righteous might on him/herself becomes huge?

Wildshape is a magical effect - check. It could increase size - check.

"The new form must be within one size category of your normal size".

"This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest..."

What's the difference?

 

[Corwin]

There ya go. Power_Munchkin gets it.

For the record, I've sent the obligatory email in to the Sage on this one. No telling how long 'til I recieve a reply (if ever). I've been hit-and-miss on replies in the past from him. He's a busy guy after all.

If I get something, I'll post it here, whether I agree with it or not.

 

[The Souljourner]

It doesn't increase your size if you're already that size. It can reduce your size, if you're bigger than the creature.

Is polymorph then a spell that increases your strength? It could be, but it might not be.

There's a difference between "increasing" and setting. A spell that adds +6 to your strength is increasing your strength. A spell that sets your strength to 18 is not increasing your strength, it is simply setting it to a value. It might be higher, it might be lower, it might be the same, but it's not a "strength increasing spell" per se.

So are you saying that if you used polymorph on a half-ogre to change it into a tiger, it could be animal growthed, but do the same to a human, and it suddenly can't be animal growthed? Or are you saying you couldn't do it to the half ogre either, even though he's not even changing size?

It doesn't make any sense your way. A spell that "increases your size" increase it regardless of your starting size, a la Righteous Might or Enlarge Person. Polymorph changes your form, which sets your size to the size of the form (whether that's the same, smaller, or larger).

My way is always consistant, yours is not. I believe the designers intended it only to be spells that specifically say "you increase in size" a la enlarge person, righteous might, and animal growth.

I'd be interested in what the Sage has to say only as a curiosity, since I put very little faith in his replies. If Andy Collins were to state "I intended it to work this way" then I would attribute a lot more weight to the answer.

-The Souljourner

 

[melkoriii]

The Souljourner, you got it.

Poly changes form. If the new form has a 24 Str and your normal one has a 10 Str does your Belt of Ogre Str still work?


Yes because the Str is part of the new form not a magical effect.

Same with the Size change.

The Magical effect is takeing the new form, not the size change or the Stat change.

 

[Corwin]

There's a difference between "increasing" and setting. A spell that adds +6 to your strength is increasing your strength. A spell that sets your strength to 18 is not increasing your strength, it is simply setting it to a value. It might be higher, it might be lower, it might be the same, but it's not a "strength increasing spell" per se.

Strength increasing magic doesn't have this problem because we get the simplicity of bonus types to compare. If the spell increases size using an enhancement bonus, then it stacks with an enlargement bonus (or unnamed bonus). Simple. Changing size has no bonus types or names to fall back on, so there is no comparison.

So are you saying that if you used polymorph on a half-ogre to change it into a tiger, it could be animal growthed, but do the same to a human, and it suddenly can't be animal growthed? Or are you saying you couldn't do it to the half ogre either, even though he's not even changing size?

Oddly enough, if a storm giant is a 5th level druid he must shrink down to small and medium animals. He cannot become an elephant (for example) dispite the animal being the same size and having less HD. How fair is that?

So yes, there is a double standard. Thus is the fickle arbitrariness of magic. Sux, donut?

My way is always consistant, yours is not. I believe the designers intended it only to be spells that specifically say "you increase in size" a la enlarge person, righteous might, and animal growth.

And I genuinelty believe otherwise. Funny how we both read it and get different impressions. Or are you saying I'm just making stuff up here?

See my giant example above. No, there isn't always consistancy when dealing with unusally sized base-creatures and their new transformed shapes.

I'd also like to point out that my interpretation tries to maintain some semblance of balance where yours takes a hearty stroll down Broken-ville (see my previously posted examples).

I'd be interested in what the Sage has to say only as a curiosity, since I put very little faith in his replies. If Andy Collins were to state "I intended it to work this way" then I would attribute a lot more weight to the answer.

I hear that a lot from people. But he is the authority on the matter nonetheless. I may not agree with everything he says either, but it's a start.

As I've said, I'll post a reply either way. He may very well agree with you. I will disagree with his decision in that case. But at least we'll have heard from him on the matter.

 

[Corwin]

Poly changes form. If the new form has a 24 Str and your normal one has a 10 Str does your Belt of Ogre Str still work?

Yes because the Str is part of the new form not a magical effect.

I briefly went over this in reply to Souljounrner while you were posting this. I'll rehash.

Of course the belt still works, it's an enancement bonus. The strength you get from the new form is not. They stack. This is a non-issue in regards to this debate, IMO. We aren't talking about stats. We are talking size change. Nothing more.

Same with the Size change.

Not even. As I said, two different things with two completely different rules mechanics.

The Magical effect is takeing the new form, not the size change or the Stat change.

Yet size is changing. Is this not obvious? You can't avoid the fact that your size indeed went up, right? Thus size changes. You got bigger and different.

 

[melkoriii]

I briefly went over this in reply to Souljounrner while you were posting this. I'll rehash.

Of course the belt still works, it's an enancement bonus. The strength you get from the new form is not. They stack. This is a non-issue in regards to this debate, IMO. We aren't talking about stats. We are talking size change. Nothing more.



Not even. As I said, two different things with two completely different rules mechanics.



Yet size is changing. Is this not obvious? You can't avoid the fact that your size indeed went up, right? Thus size changes. You got bigger and different.

So by your ruleing anyone that has the spell "Reincarnation" cast on them and the result changes their size makes them not afftected by any size change (other than teh one step) spells/effects. Even Polymorph or Wildshape.

Nope

I stand by Souljourner on this.

 

[Corwin]

So by your ruleing anyone that has the spell "Reincarnation" cast on them and the result changes their size makes them not afftected by any size change (other than teh one step) spells/effects. Even Polymorph or Wildshape.

Oh come now, you can't be for real on this one? Can you? You're comparing reincarnate to polymorph now?

It's difficult to take you seriously on this, but here' goes...

Reincarnate does not "alter" you. It is an instantaneous spell that brings you back to life in a new (natural, real -and in every way- non-magical) body. This is nothing like polymorph. Surely you see that?

 

[melkoriii]

Oh come now, you can't be for real on this one? Can you? You're comparing reincarnate to polymorph now?

It's difficult to take you seriously on this, but here' goes...

Reincarnate does not "alter" you. It is an instantaneous spell that brings you back to life in a new (natural, real -and in every way- non-magical) body. This is nothing like polymorph. Surely you see that?

Is it a Magical Spell? Yes
Does it change your Size? Yes

Same examples you gave.

 

[The Souljourner]

I think we're at the agree to disagree phase here. In my opinion, altering shape and altering size are different. In your mind they're not. I think we can both see where the other one is coming from, even if we think he's completely crazy

I'll admit it's not clear, and I'll also admit that it's perfectly possible that I'm wrong (but I doubt it ).

-The Souljourner