Wildshape + Animal Growth =/= huge size

[Dwarmaj]

Hmm, a druid can wildshape and become large, then cast Animal Growth to become huge and get +8 str, +4 con, 10/magic DR, and +4 to saves. And you think this is broken?

Take a look at a similar level cleric (12th level) who casts Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. He'll have the BAB of a fighter, +4luck bonus on attacks/damage, DR 10 evil or good, +14 Str, +4Con, +4 Natural Armor, and +12hp. With Persistent Spell feat, these buffs can be made to last all day long, something a druid can't do.

 

[Corwin]

Hmm, a druid can wildshape and become large, then cast Animal Growth to become huge and get +8 str, +4 con, 10/magic DR, and +4 to saves. And you think this is broken?

Take a look at a similar level cleric (12th level) who casts Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. He'll have the BAB of a fighter, +4luck bonus on attacks/damage, DR 10 evil or good, +14 Str, +4Con, +4 Natural Armor, and +12hp. With Persistent Spell feat, these buffs can be made to last all day long, something a druid can't do.

You are comparing a 9th level druid to a 12th level cleric? Ah. Hmmm.

Seriously though, the druid can persistant his animal growth too. And when his wildshape wears off, what happens?

According to current concensus around here, that means he retains the large size.

Also, you are misleading in your comparison. The druid is likely picking up far more than the cleric (ability score wise). Don't forget the druid is picking up the new form's substantial scores. I'm betting, for nearly every druid PC, that's way more than +14 Strength the cleric gets. Tons of Natural Armor, Con, etc. Plus, as a Huge creature, those trip and grapple check bonuses are seriously harsh. And the natural weapons of that form are increased do to the size increase, don't forget.

So that druid (who, don't forget, is 3 levels behind your uber-cleric) is getting far more than you present. Exceeding the cleric in many ways.

 

[mikebr99]

The Souljourner is correct here. Form changing and Size Increasing are not the same - and can "stack" all they want.
-Frank

I'll have to second this...
You are wildshaping into an animal, it's size is specific to that animal you choose. You aren't aloud to change into a large sized Megaraptor at 8th.

YMMV

Mike

 

[Nail]

I, too, am persuaded by the SRD 3.5e that Wild Shape and Animal Growth stack. One is a change in form (and type!), and one is a change in a form's size.

However, I've not seen this in play yet. The druid IMC is not quite capable of turning into a Huge Dire Ape.

Has anyone actually played this combo? I don't mean: "My friend said when his friend's druid did it...."

EDIT: Incidentaly, this very same subject came up last week. Looks like this will be a perennial question....

 

[FrankTrollman]

Has anyone actually played this combo?

Well... I'll start by saying that combat druids are over-powered - but not because of Animal Growth. With the squeazing rules in effect - Huge Size seems to be a disadvantage as often as not, even outside.

Druids can do some horrible things with tripping/grappling/rending - and the current state of the form changing rules (and FAQ), where they can take unarmed strikes at their normal number of attacks and do as much damage as any natural weapon they aren't taking natural weapon attacks with and still take all of their remaining natural weapon attacks - Druids with Improved Unarmed Strike and Greater Magic Fang have more strength than barbarians, more attacks than Monks, and penetrate DR as well as Fighters.

It's pretty much all crazy. Animal Growth rarely enters into it - as Huge Size is usually not desirable (and takes an all-important combat round where you could be eating like three people) - but the combat Druid is pretty over the top using the current mishmash of Form Changing/Unarmed Strike rules and rulings.

-Frank

 

[The Souljourner]

8th level druid turning into a dire ape and animal growthing himself: Huge size, 15' reach, 30 Strength.

Two claws at +16 to hit, doing 1d8+10, and a bite at +11 to hit, doing 2d6+5.

Not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is when this guy wields a huge Greatsword +2 and gets two attacks doing 4d6+15 at +18/+13

But as a DM, you have the option to not allow this, since huge greatswords aren't exactly going to be growing on trees.

Edit - this guy's grapple check would be +24, however, which is damnably high.

12th level Druid, turning into a dire bear and animal growthing himself: Huge size, 10' reach, 39 Strength.

Claw (x2) at +23 doing 2d6+14, Bite at +18 doing 4d6+7.

So... it really doesn't look that bad to me.

Edit - grapple check of +31. Yeouch. Throw in improved grapple and you're at +35. Wow.

-The Souljourner

 

[Corwin]

Yeah. Those numbers seem way too high to me.

BTW...

What is ridiculous is when this guy wields a huge Greatsword +2 and gets two attacks doing 4d6+15 at +18/+13

Keep in mind that he can be holding a normal sized greatsword before being animal growthed and it will increase in size to accomodate. So, it is horrifyingly nasty.

But as a DM, you have the option to not allow this, since huge greatswords aren't exactly going to be growing on trees.

As a druid, considering their need to use non-metal weapons, I'd imagine that their greatswords do grow on trees.

 

[DM2]

As a druid, considering their need to use non-metal weapons, I'd imagine that their greatswords do grow on trees.

Not in 3.5, unless they do so for flavor reasons. Druids can use any weapons, even metal greatswords (though they'd need a multiclass or a feat to avoid a -4 penalty)

DM2

 

[Impeesa]

Wildshape doesn't give a 'bonus' to size (like Animal Growth does) any more than it gives a bonus to ability scores, or speed, or hairiness. The animal's ability scores replace your base ones, its form replaces your base one, etc. Your base size while wildshaped is that of the animal form, which can then be enhanced just like any other animal.

Of course, I see the balance issues here too - I'd be inclined to disallow it on an entirely different rationale, though: a druid (hopefully) has too high an intelligence to qualify as an animal, and instead becomes a magical beast. If you allow them to be animal type, then you open it up to them walking around with Nature's Favor and Nature's Avatar up. In Huge Legendary Bear form.

--Impeesa--

 

[Corwin]

Not in 3.5, unless they do so for flavor reasons. Druids can use any weapons, even metal greatswords (though they'd need a multiclass or a feat to avoid a -4 penalty)

OMG! It was a joke. Jeez. Where are people's sense of humor?!