Wildshape + Animal Growth =/= huge size

[melkoriii]

I think we're at the agree to disagree phase here. In my opinion, altering shape and altering size are different. In your mind they're not. I think we can both see where the other one is coming from, even if we think he's completely crazy

I'll admit it's not clear, and I'll also admit that it's perfectly possible that I'm wrong (but I doubt it ).

-The Souljourner

Hey!

I just tying to make a point using his logic.

 

[Corwin]

Hey!

I just tying to make a point using his logic.

Actually, what you are doing is more akin to muddying the waters with straw men.

Seriously though, I don't think your example holds. Again, one is an instantaneous restoration of life. This is, in all ways, permanent and unchangeable and "non-magical" once done. Wildshape (and Poly) is a dispellable, temporary, magical alteration to your normal form. They are unrelated in every way.

Souljourner: I don't disagree that we should agree to be at the agree to disagree stage.

As for who is "right" and who is "wrong": Even after the Sage makes a call, it is ultimately up to each individual group to decide how to play it in their game. I wouldn't hold either interpretation against them...

Though my way is obviously better...

 

[Corwin]

Having said that...

In the meantime, maybe we can tackle the issue of, assuming for a moment that the two spells stack, some of the imballance issues it creates?

How bad is the following scenario (thi is from my previous post):

A 9th-level Druid can become a Huge Dire Lion, Huge Polar Bear, Huge Dire Ape or Huge (Giant) Octopus.

Is this as broken as is seem on the surface? I'm inclined to think so.

 

[Xavim]

According to the 3.5 SRD wildshape is a super natural ability, not a magical effect (and therefore not subject to anti-magic and cannot be dispelled). And since two different sources giving the same benefit stack, the Druid is free to alter their size through their new spell.
eg. inherent bonus + enhancement bonus.

I think the error in your reasoning is that you're still considering the Druids previous form. When a Druid changes shape he assumes a new form, thus ceasing to be what he used to. Thus, for all intensive purposes, he ceases to be a human Druid, and instead is a Dire Bear(or whatever) Druid. Nothing is stopping you from animal growthing a bear right, well since the Driud BECOMES a bear and is now an animal, just as if he were born one.

I think I can safely say that this closes the deal. Supernatural and magical stack. End of story.

As for it being broken, the ANIMAL GROWTH can be dispelled and is negated by anti-magic. What's the big deal? No one's complaining about the untouchable prismatic sphere wizard defence. Lets see any class other than an arcanist get through that.

 

[melkoriii]

Wildshape is not dispellable from I can see in the SRD.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Just so we can see what we are talking about in crunchy numbers...

A 9th-level Druid can become a Huge Dire Lion, Huge Polar Bear, Huge Dire Ape or Huge (Giant) Octopus.

A 9th-level Druid (12 HD+) can be a Huge Dire Bear.

A 15th-level Druid (16 HD+) can be a Gargantuan Triceratops.

A 15th-level Druid (18 HD+) can become a Gargantuan Tyranosaurus Rex.

Keep in mind that Animal growth also gives him DR 10/magic, +4 saves, and the stat bumps. Plus, all size and Strength related abililties of the animal go up with the size (check out those dinos, frex ).

First of all you should be a little more careful with level/HD limits in your examples.

More importantly, I do not see, say, a Huge Dire Bear at 12th level to be all that impressive. You should note that an 11th level Druid can summon a Dire Bear and Animal Growth it legitimately through more standard means.

Balancewise, I do not see why a major class-defining ability cannot be as powerful as a high level spell for that character level. If it involves the PC risking his HPs and wading into melee, that counts as a big downside more often than it would be an advantage.

Recall that a Dire Bear is CR 7. An Animal Growthed Dire Bear is a weak CR 9 (to be generous). The Druid becomes as dangerous as a CR 9 creature by buffing with a 5th level spell. So what?

 

[Zaruthustran]

Having said that...

In the meantime, maybe we can tackle the issue of, assuming for a moment that the two spells stack, some of the imballance issues it creates?

How bad is the following scenario (thi is from my previous post):

A 9th-level Druid can become a Huge Dire Lion, Huge Polar Bear, Huge Dire Ape or Huge (Giant) Octopus.

Is this as broken as is seem on the surface? I'm inclined to think so.

It's not broken at all. Imbalanced, maybe, but not broken.

By the way, "double-stacking" wildshape and animal growth isn't broken. Here's why:

A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level

Note that the wildshape description does not take the druid's original shape or type into account.

An ogre (size Large) can, at 8th level, assume the shape of a Large animal. If this ogre druid has the Natural Spell feat he can then cast Animal Growth on himself, becoming a Huge animal.

In the same way: a halfling druid (size Medium) can, at 8th level, assume the shape of a Large animal. If this ogre druid has the Natural Spell feat he can then cast Animal Growth on himself, becoming a Huge animal.

Put another way: a druid shapechanged into an animal (size Large) is an animal (size large). "Large" is the size. If you grow this animal, it can grow to "Huge". If you try to grow it again then the magic fails because, as you say, growth magic can only be used once.

Put yet another way: a Medium druid who shapechanges into a lion becomes a Lion. His type changes to animal and everything. He's a lion. Looking up "lion" in the monster manual, we see that it is a Large animal. Animal Growth increases an animal's size by one step. One step bigger than Large is Huge, so a lion with Animal Growth becomes Huge.

Put the last way: you see two creatures before you. One is a lion, the other is also a lion. Both have a type of Animal. Question: What happens if you cast Animal Growth on one, or the other, or both? Answer: the animal grows. Irrelevant trivia: one of the lions is an 8th level Druid who has taken the Wild Shape of a Lion. Other irrelevant trivia: this Druid was originally a titan.

Point is: Wild Shape is not size-increasing magic. It is a shape-changing ability. Big difference.

-z

 

[Camarath]

According to the 3.5 SRD wildshape is a super natural ability, not a magical effect (and therefore not subject to anti-magic and cannot be dispelled).

I believe Wildshape is subject to Antimagic.

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

 

[FrankTrollman]

The Souljourner is correct here. Form changing and Size Increasing are not the same - and can "stack" all they want.

Wildshape does go away in an antimagic field - in 3rd edition it could be dispelled, in 3.5 it can't be. But it's still magical.

-Frank

 

[Corwin]

Wow, it's amazing how this was a pretty civilized discussion that wrapped up for the most part. Now a bunch of condescending (and some, wrong) people show up and try to "show me". Jeez. Lame.

I already stated I could very well be wrong but this is the way I read it. I still do. Others as well. How are you people changing that? Nothing you've added is new to the discussion that Souljourner hasn't already said. Post count inflation?

Xavim: To claim SU effects aren't magical is laughable. And, yes, they are subject to antimagic. If your going to come in to a discussion to school someone, I advise you to first learn the curriculum. Especially when you toss around flagrant arrogance using statements like, "I think I can safely say that this closes the deal." Gaul.

Besides that, my point about dispellability was in relation to melkoriii's comparison of reincarnate to polymorph. Last time I checked, those were both spells.

Zaruthustran: If you'd bother to go back and read my posts, you'd see I was the one that brought up the fact that original size is not factored into a druid's Wildshape options. Where are you going with this? Are you trying to reiterate what I already said or something?

You claim it's not broken. I beg to differ. Did you actually look at the numbers, or are you just interested in proving me wrong so you can continue to play a broken druid?

Take a 9th level druid and Wildshape him into a Dire Ape and animal growth him into Huge with DR 10/magic and the save bonuses. Tell me that isn't inappropriately sick...

Don't just say it can't be that bad. Actually look at it.

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I'm sorry folks if this seems like I'm getting a little defensive. But you people all come rushing in here effectively after the discussion has wound down and start ganging up and making undefendable claims. What's that about? Especially when some of it is patently BS or guess work. Really, I don’t mind other opinions. But don’t jump in here claiming you “know” the answer to a fuzzy question. Even Souljourner admits it isn’t completely clear. What do you know that we don’t?