Will CON become a dump stat?

[Belphanior]

besides you don't know if there won't be a rope trick in 4E.

At first level? I did say "get such easy access", mind you. I don't doubt it'll be in there somewhere, but I'm willing to bet real hard cash with you for it not being something you just trivially snap your figners for at the heroic tier.

Generally, every DM who had Problems with 5 minutes workdays in 3E, rope trick or not, will have problems with 5 minute workdays in 4E.

Except we have encounter powers, higher hit points at low level, actions points, etc. There is less need to quit playing after the first one or two encounters.

 

[Derren]

Except we have encounter powers, higher hit points at low level, actions points, etc. There is less need to quit playing after the first one or two encounters.

Resting after 1-2 encounters wasn't really needed in 3E either unless the casters went nova and blew all their good spells in the first combat to make the fight easy.
And the same thing is possible in 4E too with daily powers.

 

[Stoat]

Generally, every DM who had Problems with 5 minutes workdays in 3E, rope trick or not, will have problems with 5 minute workdays in 4E.

This statement is simply too broadly worded to be true. The "5-minute workday" as it is called arises from a number of factors. (1) The Vancian spellcasting system allows casters to go nova, blowing through their spells more quickly than the designers anticipated. Casters who are low on spells will want to stop and rest. (2) Travel abilities, particularly teleport, make it easy to get in and out of the dungeon. A party in 3E can 'port in, wreck shop and then 'port back to safety in a nonce. (3) Rope trick makes resting in the dungeon a relatively safe proposition. (4) The 3E attrition model generally assumes that the players will expend their resources gradually over a span of 4-5 encounters. If the DM follows this model, the players have an incentive to go nova and the beat feet because the relative balance of power versus their opponents will remain in their favor.

4E dailies still allow some nova action, but its a mini-nova, not a supernova. Encounter and at-will powers can't be exhausted. Casters can't burn through all their spells in one battle. Even if they burn their dailies, they're still tough enough to make pushing on a reasonable choice.

Travel abilities are being moved to higher levels, making it more difficult for more parties to simply 'port in and 'port out. It's also possible, even likely, that Teleport as we know it has been nerfed in some as-yet-unknown way.

We don't know whether or not Rope Trick is in 4E, but we can make an educated guess at this point. My educated guess is that it's out entirely.

4E's encounter design shouldn't reward nova tactics the way that 3E's attrition model did. Every 4E encounter assumes that the players are more or less at top form. Popping in and out of the dungeon shouldn't provide the same benefit in 4E that it does in 3E.

I do generally agree that the "5-minute workday" is very much a function of playstyle and DM-style. 3E simply provided several incentives that encouraged it. 4E will not wholly remove the phenomenon, but it looks to make it more difficult and less rewarding.

 

[Belphanior]

Resting after 1-2 encounters wasn't really needed in 3E either unless the casters went nova and blew all their good spells in the first combat to make the fight easy.
And the same thing is possible in 4E too with daily powers.

At low level casters only have, what, 2 to 5 spells to begin with? Not counting the 0-level ones, which are handy, but hardly potent combat winners. A caster who wishes to use a magic effect every round is out of mojo before the second fight ends.

You call this "go nova" and imply it's the wizard's fault for being careless.

I call this "let the wizard be a wizard for goodness sake" and claim that previous D&D versions punish low level casters for trying to have their cake and eat it too. This is bad game design and something I've hated ever since my very first play experiences. I was a rogue, by the way, so don't think it's to do with a personal hangup; I just spotted it and thought it was lame. (edit: I lied, I was a thief of course. )

And as for going nova with daily powers, it's still not the same impact. That means the first encounter was a breeze and you consequently had to spend less surges, potions, whatever afterwards. You'll now have more of those and still all your encounter powers available. It's a completely different situation.

 

[Spenser]

At low level casters only have, what, 2 to 5 spells to begin with? Not counting the 0-level ones, which are handy, but hardly potent combat winners. A caster who wishes to use a magic effect every round is out of mojo before the second fight ends.

You call this "go nova" and imply it's the wizard's fault for being careless.

I call this "let the wizard be a wizard for goodness sake" and claim that previous D&D versions punish low level casters for trying to have their cake and eat it too. This is bad game design and something I've hated ever since my very first play experiences. I was a rogue, by the way, so don't think it's to do with a personal hangup; I just spotted it and thought it was lame. (edit: I lied, I was a thief of course. )

Of course, back in the "thief" era, the 1st level wizard had *one* spell. Cast Sleep, then throw daggers or something all day. That why 3e seemed so exciting to me, you could have three spells at 1st level. Or four!

 

[DreamChaser]

Ah forgot about that. That is very significant at lower levels. Dont know about later.


So the ftr with con 18 would have 4 more surges than the one with 10?

That's the beauty of the math...because the value of a healing surge is always 1/4 total HP, what is true about surges at level one remains true at level 30. Effectively, every time a character gains a +1 to con bonus, they gain 25% of their HP total added to their daily pool.

I crunched the numbers the other day...a level 30 paladin with a con of 18 has almost 900 effective daily hit points. the numbers are at work (and I'm not) so I don't recall the specifics.

DC

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

Con seems rather important in the Heroic Tier of play. However, the article on Tiers seemed to indicate that Healing Surges become less and less important as you reach higher levels. This makes me concerned about the value of Con over a long-term game.

But, we shall see.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Con seems rather important in the Heroic Tier of play. However, the article on Tiers seemed to indicate that Healing Surges become less and less important as you reach higher levels. This makes me concerned about the value of Con over a long-term game.

But, we shall see.

In 3e, Con and Int were the only attribute that had cumulative benefits at each level. I would guess that with the new skill system, the benefits of high Int will be diminished. It only makes sense then to remove the "every level" benefit of Con as well.

Perhaps it will be a dump stat in campaigns that start at the Paragon or Epic tier but since you can't "retrain" ability scores I seriously doubt it will become a dump stat when creating a level 1 PC.

Personally I like the idea that there is no stat that has a critical benefit for every single class.

 

[Keenath]

Here's what I know of that Con does so far:

- Add Con score (not modifier!) to base HP. A character with 14 Con has four HP more than a character with 10 Con.
- Extra healing surges equal to con modifier. A character with 14 Con has two more Surges than a character with 10 Con.
- Add the better of Con or Str modifier to Fortitude defense.
- Some class abilities allow you to add Con modifier to weapon damage. (Fighters with warhammers, specifically.)


All your ability scores are going to become somewhat less important as time goes on, but it doesn't sound like Con is particularly less important than, say, Dexterity.

 

[drjones]

Yes all teh uber leet PCs will have a CON of 6 CRISWELL PREDICTS!