Will the Magic System be shown the door?

Henry said:
I'd be interested in seeing how that plays out, myself. I could deal with a system similar to this...
Start a new thread and let me know where to look for it.

My personal preference is the Bad Axe forum, but that does tend to "hide it away" somewhat. Sort of depends on whether you want a smaller, more intimate, more collegial pool of designers, or throw the door open wide.

My impression of the House Rules forum taints my preference... ;)
 

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WayneLigon said:
With the exception of Dilvish, all of the ones mentioned should be able to be found in any chain bookstore day in and day out; I don't think it gets much more 'mainstream' than that.
I'll just pimp Barbara Hambly's novels, which I would love to see turned into an RPG because the magic is exactly how I like to think of magic and Diane Duane's "So you want to be a wizard" series (esp the books with magic using cats!) for the slightly younger (or just less grim'n'gritty requiring) readers.

But to the general point of the "does fiction include magic users who can go all day?" question - does fiction include fighters who can go all day, swinging a greatsword twice every 6 seconds for 10 minutes at a time, and then if they have not been hit themselves go on a 5 hour forced march then do it again for half an hour? Maybe Conan. Yes, its unrealistic to do magic all day because magic is hard work. But so is swinging a sword, so is galloping around with a lance, so in its own way is moving very very carefully and scanning every inch of a corridor for traps that you must have completely steady hands as you disarm. If D&D introduces a fatigue mechanic, the question of how to apply it to spell casting will be an important one. But thematicly (as opposed to mechanically) the "fiction wizards can't keep doing doing fireballs" argument fails for me when the best way to describe why in most cases is "they're exauhsted".

I'd like to see all per day limitations on abilities, including but not limited to spells, go away. That doesn't mean letting everyone do what they can do now but all day long and at no cost - well except bards. They can have their bardic music all day long so the marshalls and dragon shamans will stop giving them wedgies between classes. :p Everyone else gets different kinds of limitations like "your top tier of spells takes longer to cast" (you want tactics and resource management decisions, how bout the choice between firing off a magic dart for 4 rounds vs the other's needing to cover you long enough to get off the big boom?) or "you are fatigued afterwards" or "if you cast the same spell so many times before resting it loses effectiveness from "burn in" (as in Diane Duane's books)" Or they just have lower power spells than before. Lots'a options, lots'a fun....
 

I noticed this in the "Sibling Rivalry" article on Wizard's site, (there's a link on the news page) and it seemed rather relevant to the discussion. From Andy Collins:

"For example, my Greyhawk Dungeons game has taught me very clearly that the natural order of dungeon-delving isn't "fight through three rooms, then go home" -- that's just an artifact of a few classes' over-reliance on per-day abilities (specifically, spells). Nobody in this campaign relies much on per-day abilities (the only true spellcaster in the group, the druid, styles herself more as an archer than a spellcaster, so she's perfectly functional even when she's out of spells). So when one session spent exploring the Lost City found the characters cruising through a whopping 13 consecutive encounters before calling it a day, it reminded me that deep down what players want more than anything else is to keep playing, and that anything contributing to that end is a Good Thing."

Might not be where everyone wants it to go, but I'd say the mindset at WotC is definitely leaning towards giving Vancian the heave-ho.
 

Has anyone ever tried to design a "Per Encounter" approach to D&D magic?

Maybe something like using the spell point variant from UA, but characters only have a quarter of the amount of points, but can refresh them as a full round action that provokes an AoO or something?

Certain spells would obviously prove problematic with this system (time stop etc), but maybe spells could be broken up into encounter spells (refreshable) like manoeuvres from ToB, and spells that can only be used a certain amount of times per day?
 


Henry said:
I have started a separate discussion thread in the Bad Axe Games forum, on developing Wulf's kernel of an idea into a full-fledged system:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3481058#post3481058

Come one, come all, burgeoning game-tinkerers of ENWorld! Let's whip this puppy into shape, let's put talk into action, let's create the uncreatable, let's make it happen, and all those other catchphrases. :)

I like the idea of the system in question, as it balances solving the legitimate concerns about the problems with the per day balancing design and avoids many of the problems of an encounter based balancing design. That said, I think there is no point attempting to implement this before the next edition. Designing the system, assigning spells and balancing it all is just too much work at this point and would not be integrated into new D&D products anyway, which may therefore unbalance the system with the new stuff they introduce. I think it is best to wait for 4E to deal with this.
 

When I (or Henry, or others) say that I don't want the next edition to be balanced exclusively on the per encounter basis, most people seem to automatically assume that I am defending the spells per day design. This is not necessarily the case. What I seek is a design where spells (or at least some spells/abilities) are limited in their use on a longer-term basis. Whether this means per day or per month (say per full moon) or per fatigue, or whatever is another matter - I would be fine with any of those, so long as the PCs cannot simply zoom from encounter to encounter and remain at the same strength, or at least a system that preserves the rule-codified existence some of the more powerful magical effects so that I can use them in my devious plots against my PCs, muhahahaha.

Heck, I would be fine if all Wizard spells were castable at will (with significant rebalancing, of course), but the most powerful ones simply had very, very long casting times (e.g. one day to cast the GATE spell, one month to cast X...). Essentially, casting time would be the balancing factor for spells. Indeed, the more I think about this the more viable this sounds. It still does not solve the issue of resources not diminishing accross multiple encounters, but IMO it avoids all the other pitfalls of per encounter balancing.
 
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Roman said:
That said, I think there is no point attempting to implement this before the next edition. Designing the system, assigning spells and balancing it all is just too much work at this point and would not be integrated into new D&D products anyway, which may therefore unbalance the system with the new stuff they introduce.

Two points:

1) We definitely aren't going to see a new edition of D&D in the next year to two years' time;

2) That should never stop tinkers from tinkering, anyway. :D
 

frankthedm said:
I take issue that the effect circvmvents spell components and SR. The unlimited resource and the amount of damage is fine, in fact it adds to the game by adding to the characters stamina, reducing spelldump and sleep.

The spell itself avoids SR. If this was the fire version, requring a fire based spell in reserve I do not believe it bounces around SR. Re components: I have no problem with this, but a simple house rule would be it requires as a focus the material component of the spell used a the reserve spell.
 


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