Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

[RigaMortus]

Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

As soon as you attack, your foe loses their dex, with regards to YOU only. This is assuming you were successful with QttE. If so, it triggers your extra attack from ET, IF you are within melee range (and you are in this example). However, THIS attack your opponent sees just in time to retain their dex bonus, since bluffing only works for ONE attack, so no sneak attack. It's a good tactic, but the ray isn't really necessary. Now, if you were Imp. Inv. and had foes coming at you, you'd be getting sneak AoO's left and right.

Not quite sure I follow you here... Are you suggesting that my first attack gets Sneak Attack damage but my second attack (from Expert Tactician) does not get Sneak Attack? I'd like to know why. I don't quite follow your explanation here.

 

[RigaMortus]

1stly, Split Ray affect two targets equally much with one attack roll and rolling damage divided by two. So it's 1d3+3d6 to one target and that divided with two against two targets.

Are you sure Sneak Attack also gets divided? If that is the case, would Sneak Attack damage be multiplied if I hit a crit?

As far as applying Sneak Attack only once, I forgot about the whole Shuriken debate. I can see where this type of thing would be compared to throwing multiple Shurikeens.

 

[AuraSeer]

'You can split spells that specify a single target and make a ranged touch attack.'

What the heck do they mean by that.

They mean that if a spell specifies exactly one target, and requires a ranged touch attack, then it can be split by this feat. Other spells are not subject to splitting.

Fireball does not specify a single target. Phantasmal Killer does not require a ranged attack roll. Shocking Grasp does require a touch attack, but it isn't a ranged touch, so it is not subject to splitting.

 

[Caliber]

I would the say the SA damage (not to mention the regular damage) would remain whole.

Split Spell requires two attack rolls against each target. You could only SA one target, but you could still hit the second. So that is ...

X X

V

If X are two orcs, while V is your character, you could Split a Ray of Frost and him both. One would take 1d3 while the other would take 1d3 + 3d6.

Hope I helped.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

Not quite sure I follow you here... Are you suggesting that my first attack gets Sneak Attack damage but my second attack (from Expert Tactician) does not get Sneak Attack? I'd like to know why. I don't quite follow your explanation here.

Because the extra attack from Expert Tactian comes after your normal action, and the Bluff from Quicker than the Eye only left them without their Dex bonus for the remainder of your action.

1. You successfully bluff them as a MEA with Quicker than the Eye.
2. They lose their Dex bonus
3. Expert Tactician is triggered because they lost their Dex bonus (granting you an extra attack after your current action)
4. You make your normal attack (which will be a Sneak Attack)
5. Your normal action ends, they get their dex bonus back.
6. You can now make the extra attack granted by Expert Tactician (but they have their Dex bonus back so it's not a Sneak Attack).

 

[RigaMortus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

Because the extra attack from Expert Tactian comes after your normal action, and the Bluff from Quicker than the Eye only left them without their Dex bonus for the remainder of your action.

1. You successfully bluff them as a MEA with Quicker than the Eye.
2. They lose their Dex bonus
3. Expert Tactician is triggered because they lost their Dex bonus (granting you an extra attack after your current action)
4. You make your normal attack (which will be a Sneak Attack)
5. Your normal action ends, they get their dex bonus back.
6. You can now make the extra attack granted by Expert Tactician (but they have their Dex bonus back so it's not a Sneak Attack).

Ok, thought I had it, but now I am confused again. Isn't the entire round considered my action? I mean, no matter what I do in that round it is an action, right? I can move, as a move action. I can talk, as a free action. I can attack as a standard or full round action. I can drink a potion as a move-equivalent action. If I am fast enough (like Hasted) I can make an extra, partial action, within that same round. Correct? All these are actions I can do on my turn. So what is meant by "after my normal action"? What is considered my "normal" action?

Under the description of Expert Tactician (from Song and Silence) the only thing that is slightly relevant (I don't feel like quoting the entire thing =) is where it mentions that "You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action."

Again, what is my regular action? And what is the difference between taking my partial attack BEFORE or AFTER that normal action? Is there a difference (advantage/disadvantage) on when I should take it? When does this part of your statement occur:

5. Your normal action ends, they get their dex bonus back.

Quicker Than The Eye
"While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move-equivalent action, opposed by the Spot check of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC."

Again, I don't see where it mentions that the opponent loses their Dex bonus for just that attack. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even specifically mention that they lose their Dex bonus against ONLY me . So I guess if someone else attacks them, they still don't have their Dex bonus.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

Ok, thought I had it, but now I am confused again. Isn't the entire round considered my action?

No. Your normal action is either a Full Round Action or a Standard Action (composed of an MEA+Partial Action, but counted as a single action for most purposes).

I mean, no matter what I do in that round it is an action, right? I can move, as a move action. I can talk, as a free action. I can attack as a standard or full round action. I can drink a potion as a move-equivalent action. If I am fast enough (like Hasted) I can make an extra, partial action, within that same round. Correct?

Correct, but the extra action from haste is not part of your normal action. It's extra. Just like the attack from Expert Tactician is extra.

All these are actions I can do on my turn. So what is meant by "after my normal action"? What is considered my "normal" action?

The single Standard or Full Attack action that everyone gets. Anything outside of that is not part of your normal action. (Free actions can be taken during your normal action, or during any extra actions you get.)

Under the description of Expert Tactician (from Song and Silence) the only thing that is slightly relevant (I don't feel like quoting the entire thing =) is where it mentions that "You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action."

Exactly.

Again, what is my regular action?

See above.

And what is the difference between taking my partial attack BEFORE or AFTER that normal action?

It means you cannot take it during that action, even if you trigger it during your normal action. You have to finish one action before you can take another (except for free actions, and special situations like spring attack).

Is there a difference (advantage/disadvantage) on when I should take it?

In this particular situation you don't have a choice, you can only take it after your current action. (Because you didn't have the extra attack available before your action. You triggered it during your action, so the only time left to take it is after your action.) And technically, Expert Tactician doesn't grant a partial action, it grants a single extra attack.

In the general situation of haste, taking your extra partial action before or after your normal actions gives you options such as: "Cast spell, MEA/Move, cast spell" or "MEA/move, cast spell, MEA/move" or "cast spell, cast spell, MEA/move" or "MEA/move, full attack" or "full attack, MEA/move"

When does this part of your statement occur:
5. Your normal action ends, they get their dex bonus back.

It occurs right after number 4. Your action ends, they get their dex bonus back. The extra attack from Expert Tactician occurs after your normal action, therefore it has to happen after they have regained their dex bonus.

Quicker Than The Eye
"While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move-equivalent action, opposed by the Spot check of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC."

Again, I don't see where it mentions that the opponent loses their Dex bonus for just that attack.

How about "If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If that partial action is an attack..."

You only make them look elsewhere long enough for you to make a partial action. After that one partial action, they are paying attention to you again, and they have their Dex bonus back. The extra attack from Expert Tactician occurs after the partial action, and thus they have their Dex bonus agains it.

As a matter of fact, it doesn't even specifically mention that they lose their Dex bonus against ONLY me . So I guess if someone else attacks them, they still don't have their Dex bonus.

Since they only lose their Dex during the partial action on your turn, no one else will be able to attack them before they regain their Dex bonus to AC.

 

[RigaMortus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

How about "If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If that partial action is an attack..."

You only make them look elsewhere long enough for you to make a partial action. After that one partial action, they are paying attention to you again, and they have their Dex bonus back. The extra attack from Expert Tactician occurs after the partial action, and thus they have their Dex bonus agains it.

If this is the case, then why would I even get Expert Tactician? Their Dex bonus is back, right? So I can't Sneak Attack them. So why would I be able to use Expert Tactician on them? How can I be quick enough to hit them with Expert Tactician (they lose their Dex bonus, that is the requirement for ET) but not quick enough to get a Sneak Attack against them (again, they lose their Dex bonus, that is a requirement for SA). By this logic, shouldn't it be all or nothing? Why is one an exception and the other is not?

Since they only lose during the partial action on your turn, no one else will be able to attack them before they regain their Dex bonus to AC.

Unless they too have Expert Tactician, right?

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will this "attack combo" work (kinda Smack-downish)

If this is the case, then why would I even get Expert Tactician? Their Dex bonus is back, right? So I can't Sneak Attack them. So why would I be able to use Expert Tactician on them? How can I be quick enough to hit them with Expert Tactician (they lose their Dex bonus, that is the requirement for ET) but not quick enough to get a Sneak Attack against them (again, they lose their Dex bonus, that is a requirement for SA). By this logic, shouldn't it be all or nothing? Why is one an exception and the other is not?

It's not all or nothing. You were next to them, they lost their Dex bonus against you, this triggered Expert Tactician, but they got their Dex bonus back before you could attack them.

You still get to attack them because they opened themselved up to you (they lost their Dex bonus to AC in regards to your attack), but they recovered quick enough to try and avoid the attack (i.e. they have their Dex bonus to AC again).

Unless they too have Expert Tactician, right?

No. The victim only loses their Dex bonus against you when you attack them. Nothing indicates that they lose their Dex bonus in regards to anyone else. They are only looking away from you, they are not ignoring everyone else.

 

[kreynolds]

Damn, Caliban. You better breathe during your posts or you'll suffocate.