Will this Lead to a TPK? [updated 3/16]

[bento]

Dragon Encounter Postgame

Last night I ran the blue dragon adventure modified with opportunities for the players to get out of meeting the dragon. I changed the villain of the adventure to be the sand giant, and the story be about his betrayal of their trust. Their focus was to defeat him and not stick around. But as I said before, things rarely go as planned.

So the night started out with the sand giant's (SG) tale of woe - he was a failed caravan guard who lost his brother to the dragon. He's vowed revenge and has a trap layed out to kill the dragon. The players wanted to join in, but the SG tells them he'll only take them on as companions if they can pin him in a fair fight. So they fight the SG unarmed, and they fail (miserably) to do any meaningful damage on him. So the SG tells them they are far too puny to fight a dragon, but he'll be glad to guide the party through the badlands, showing them where to hide while the dragon is making his rounds. As one of my players puts it - there's no way they could win a fight like that without fighting dirty.

Led by a scout the SG employs, the party reaches the mid-point at the ruins, and the spot the SG uses to trap other caravans. Unseen by the players, the SG has flown a a signal banner from a nearby mesa, and then joins the party. Half the group makes the DC 15 Notice check and sees the banner, but doesn't get too concerned about it (they are too busy debating its meaning). With the animals and the guards hidden in the entrance of a nearby cave, the two magic users (cleric & sorcerer) decide to explore the ruins for tracks while two the two rangers continue their debate about the banner. The SG leads the two magic users to the middle of the ruins where he and his scout have buried heavy chains under the sand. Quickly they throw the chains around them and the players are surprised by the deception!

Six rounds of combat later, the SG and minion go down. There's still time (about 10 minutes) before the dragon flies overhead for the players to hide. They are smart enough to take the banner down, but they decide to stand around the middle of the ruins debating the deeper meaning of what to do next and taking care of other busienss. Finally they see the dragon flying overhead and the dragon gets over 40 on his Notice check that there's activity around the ruins. At this point they decide they should hide.

So the dragon sees the giant's body and the remains of the battle and decides to investigate. Players stay hidden further in the cave, making animal handling checks to quiet down their camels and horses, and so forth. At night the sorcerer's familiar (a bat) flies around and doesn't see a dragon.

The next morning the dragon returns to the ruins and uses his ventiliquoism ability to make himself like one of the minions. The players aren't fooled, but one of them decides to risk it all and stick his head down the long and narrow cave entrance. He's sees the dragon's shadow and the dragon starts talking more as he sniffs out the scent of the camels. The player begins to talk with the dragon, "pretending" he's the SG. This goes on for the rest of the game (about a half hour) as the dragon demands camels to eat, the party not wanting to do anything until they have another day of rest. I also unveiled the mini I had been working on, which is huge in size.

My players are now trapped inside a cave with a dragon outside. I also gave them a second passage out that isn't wide enough for the camels to go through, but the people could. We're waiting until next game to figure out what happens next.

Most of my players still want to fight this dragon, but want to trap it inside the narrow tunnel. At the same time they don't want to sacfice any of their camels, that is unless it is heavily drugged with something that can slow down the dragon. In addition this this plan, I'm thinking about applying more pressure on the party to do something soon as the guards could start panicking or they could start running very short on water for everyone.

Because they really want to mess with the dragon, I'm going to give them what they want. I think my players decided I'm too soft hearted to TPK them, or even have any of them die (it's come close a couple of times but never past a -2 or -3). Should I pull my punches? Have the dragon not show up any more? Or give them what I think they really want?

 

[Wandering Star]

Hahahaha. Damn, your players are so asking for it. At the risk of sounding like an adversarial DM, I'd seriously consider giving the PCs what they want - and that sounds like what they want is their rear ends served on a plate. If it were me, I'd now design an encounter where I could pull out all stops, and really play the dragon to the best of his ability, BUT maybe also consider design for an avenue of escape the characters can take, albiet a very risky escape route. If one or more of the PCs fall, well, they were picking a fight with a massive, super intelligent, cunning reptile. Its realistic. Sure, the PCs have had time to plan; but dragons are smart; they figure things out. If the characters were able to come up with something absolutely brilliant, im not gonna stump them, but I'd also be playing the dragon up to his cunning and intelligence. Smart people just seem to know everything. They can smell a rat, and then turn the situation around and 'play' the players. Thats what high intelligence means.

Seriously, if I were to use my PC in that sort of situation, I'd expect him to die. Its all part of the versimilitude. And if we were able to somehow defeat that dragon with anything other than brilliant luck, or if it seemed the DM was pulling blows (and you can tell), it'd feel like aa serious let down.

 

[shilsen]

Thanks for the recap. Sounds like it went pretty well.

Because they really want to mess with the dragon, I'm going to give them what they want.

Always a good move, IMNSHO. One of the great jobs of DMing for me is to give PCs a lot of rope and then watch as they argue about which sort of noose will be most effective, before putting their heads in

I think my players decided I'm too soft hearted to TPK them, or even have any of them die (it's come close a couple of times but never past a -2 or -3).

Oooh! This is one area where I think a little OOC talk is a good idea. If you do want the possibility of TPKs and PC deaths to be on the table (and not all DMs do), then I think you should explicitly tell players that. Just a comment of "Look, guys, you're free to do whatever you want with your characters, but I'm not going to pull punches and prevent PCs from dying" would be enough.

Should I pull my punches? Have the dragon not show up any more? Or give them what I think they really want?

No. No. And yes.

Also remember, even if the dragon wins, it can do all sorts of interesting things to the PCs without killing them (especially not all of them) which would lead to future adventures and general entertainment, while also making the PCs feel the sting of defeat and understand that you're not going to pull your punches.

 

[WhatGravitas]

No. No. And yes.

Also remember, even if the dragon wins, it can do all sorts of interesting things to the PCs without killing them (especially not all of them) which would lead to future adventures and general entertainment, while also making the PCs feel the sting of defeat and understand that you're not going to pull your punches.

Shilsen? Can you please write a "How to be a DM like shilsen"-article?

(besides your story hour)

@bento: Nothing to add... but keep us updated!

Cheers, LT.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Sounds good - you provided the PCs with alternatives, they don't have to face the dragon (and its TPK). You gave them cover, and they might yet be able to bribe their way out with a pack of Camels....

You have not nerfed their abilities, or made it so that any character is left out of the 'fun'.

In this instance, if they mess with the dragon they will have earned their TPK.

The Auld Grump, who tries to avoid TPKs if possible

 

[Pathanus]

Interesting encounter setup.

I think the players should likely know they are up against a Huge size dragon, based on the information gained by seeing its shadow and a decent Knowledge Arcana check and know what sort of fight they are up against.

Even if they do have some resist energy scrolls or spells without CL 7 to get a resist of 20 the dragon's breath will smack them hard.

The things the players have going for them are that they are inside a cave, and although the dragon isn't likely to be fooled into entering with it's high sense motive, they may be able to anger it enough to make it fight them inside.

They definitely shouldn't fight it outside if it has Flyby Attack and being in range of its full attack is a death wish at 7th level.

It sounds like good options for them are likely to provoke it inside and try to fight, wait it out until the dragon gets bored, or try to slow the dragon down (tanglefoot bag?) and make a run for civilization although a dragon 'running' in the air with 150 ft speed times 4 can catch most anything.

At least the dragon is lawful, maybe giving it the camels will allow them an escape, a red or black would likely eat the camels and then just destroy them anyway.

 

[moritheil]

your players are so asking for it.

Yup. I don't know if your poker face is so good that they don't realize that messing with a huge dragon on its territory is begging for a TPK, but this amounts to a game of chicken with dubious returns. They should be glad if all they have to lose is some camels.

 

[pogre]

Sounds like you did very well. The PCs certainly have the power of choice here.

Any chance you could post a picture of your blue?

 

[roguerouge]

Your prep for the next session should now be on what the dragon will do with any living captives. Perhaps it will hold the dead bodies of their comrades hostage while the living PCs run missions for it outside its territory?

 

[shilsen]

Shilsen? Can you please write a "How to be a DM like shilsen"-article?

(besides your story hour)

Thanks

[pimp]My story hour does provide a good practical example of my DMing philosophy[/pimp], but I think the main bit of my DMing approach which is relevant to this thread is something I took from Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Don't go for the kill; go for the pain."

I don't like PC death for multiple reasons, as I've sounded off at various places on ENWorld, and I don't really find it adding much to the game. So instead I find ways for the PCs to be challenged and have consequences for their actions which don't involve death, and most of those result in plot options for future adventures and PC motivation to get involved in it.

With the situation bento described, for example, here's what I'd do: If the PCs attack the dragon, as it seems the players want to, then I'd have it kick their asses big-time, but not kill them. Instead, it should beat them down, humiliating them and forcing a surrender. That's not so difficult to pull off, requiring just one or two PCs to be taken down and the dragon perching on them and telling the others that if they don't surrender, it fries them or rips their heads off. And even if the others fight on, the dragon can beat them easily.

Then, once it has them as captives, the dragon strips them of all their equipment and sends them off to do something for it, promising to return some of their valuables if they do. This achieves a lot of different things. It proves to the players that there is stuff out there which they should run from. It provides a way for the DM to add new plot hooks without railroading, since the PCs do have the option to just leave and not go after what the dragon wants, but with the resultant loss of their equipment. It makes the PCs really hate the dragon and gives them a reason to want to take revenge against it in the future.

In short, it simultaneously allows the campaign to continue without any hitches (like a TPK or multiple deaths might cause), adds a lot of interesting options for the future, and gives the players/PCs the feeling of being seriously challenged and having to suffer repercussions for their failures. From my perspective, that's a win-win situation.

Hope that both helps bento and fulfills a little of what you asked for, Lord Tirian.