Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Lychee of the Exch.]

Regarding identity: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe4bUXopZ7E.

Trigger warning: this is safe for work but extremely opposable to the gender identity theory currently circulated on this forum.

And it's a disproval that every scientific authority out there subscribes to that theory.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Humans are not the strongest animals. Nor the fastest in the chase. Our claim to fame is our cognitive flexibility. So, you know, flex. Unless you have some form of cognitive dysfunction, it isn't a lot to ask. And yeah, if Granny is 90, we can give her a pass. I was responding to, "...unreasonable to the point of being impossible," which falls down as a generalization.




We are talking about having a specific person say, "please use this form of address." You don't need to know the jargon, or understand all the underlying stuff. You need to understand that a fellow human being made a request. Do you show them the basic respect of doing your level best to abide by a small request, or not? That's the question.




I don't see as anyone here is suggesting anything more draconian.

I, and pretty much every parent I know, still mixes up our kids' names and call the wrong kid the wrong name every once in a while. I don't think it's a form of cognitive dysfunction to make an occasional slip now and then. More than anything, we are creatures of habit and association, and assuming a flaw in someone, or act like something is broken with them for slipping up once in a while, is a pretty crappy thing to do, to be honest.

I have no problems addressing someone with how they want to be addressed because why wouldn't I? That's just basic common courtesy. But lowkey has a point as well. Refusing to call the person Laura makes you a jerk. Slipping up now and then by calling them Laurie because that's what you've called them your whole friendship just makes you human, and not broken with a cognitive dysfunction.

 

[SkidAce]

I found out my best friend wanted to be called "Sarah" because they identified as female.

This was after working together for three years.

Once I started using Sarah at work, and referring to her as she, the rest of the workplace slowly fell into using the correct term.

I was a great help and comfort to my friend.

To this day I still occasionally mess up. She knows it is not on purpose, and doesn't hold a grudge.

And the mistakes slowly get fewer and fewer.

 

[Gradine]

I, and pretty much every parent I know, still mixes up our kids' names and call the wrong kid the wrong name every once in a while. I don't think it's a form of cognitive dysfunction to make an occasional slip now and then. More than anything, we are creatures of habit and association, and assuming a flaw in someone, or act like something is broken with them for slipping up once in a while, is a pretty crappy thing to do, to be honest.

I have no problems addressing someone with how they want to be addressed because why wouldn't I? That's just basic common courtesy. But lowkey has a point as well. Refusing to call the person Laura makes you a jerk. Slipping up now and then by calling them Laurie because that's what you've called them your whole friendship just makes you human, and not broken with a cognitive dysfunction.

Yeah. I think it was lowkey that pointed it out, but because there's been such a high-profile push to weaponize pronouns against members of the trans community, there's a definite sensitivity to the wrong name/pronoun being used in spaces. What I will argue, however, is that that sensitivity is entirely justifiable. While there is a tendency in social justice spaces for circular firing squads and the so-called "callout culture", when you're so used to being called the wrong pronoun on purpose as a way to be hurt, it becomes difficult to tell the difference between that and a honest slip up.

The thing is though, because of that weaponization it's easy for that honest slip-up to cause actual, real harm. So just as I think that people are human and we shouldn't throw the book at everyone if they accidentally use the wrong pronoun once in a while (which honestly happens much more rarely than people might think), it's also important to recognize that trans-identified people are human too, and to cut them some slack (and try not to act defensive) if they react strongly to a simple error.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah. I think it was lowkey that pointed it out, but because there's been such a high-profile push to weaponize pronouns against members of the trans community, there's a definite sensitivity to the wrong name/pronoun being used in spaces. What I will argue, however, is that that sensitivity is entirely justifiable. While there is a tendency in social justice spaces for circular firing squads and the so-called "callout culture", when you're so used to being called the wrong pronoun on purpose as a way to be hurt, it becomes difficult to tell the difference between that and a honest slip up.

The thing is though, because of that weaponization it's easy for that honest slip-up to cause actual, real harm. So just as I think that people are human and we shouldn't throw the book at everyone if they accidentally use the wrong pronoun once in a while (which honestly happens much more rarely than people might think), it's also important to recognize that trans-identified people are human too, and to cut them some slack (and try not to act defensive) if they react strongly to a simple error.

Oh, absolutely. I agree with everything you said. I just don't think it's OK to assume someone has a broken cognitive ability if they slip up. Once our brain makes a firm association with something, it's very difficult to suddenly change that, especially if it happens in casual conversation when you're not intentionally focusing on using the new name.

 

[Gradine]

Oh, absolutely. I agree with everything you said. I just don't think it's OK to assume someone has a broken cognitive ability if they slip up. Once our brain makes a firm association with something, it's very difficult to suddenly change that, especially if it happens in casual conversation when you're not intentionally focusing on using the new name.

That's true. There's a point though, where intentionally focusing on using the new name/pronoun ought to the bar for "being respectful". Considering, again, the immense effort some in our society take towards turning "deadnames" and incorrect pronouns into a tool for hatred and demeaning, taking that extra effort to intentionally respect a person's true identity seems like the least those of us who don't have to deal with that in our lives could do.

 

[Sacrosanct]

That's true. There's a point though, where intentionally focusing on using the new name/pronoun ought to the bar for "being respectful". Considering, again, the immense effort some in our society take towards turning "deadnames" and incorrect pronouns into a tool for hatred and demeaning, taking that extra effort to intentionally respect a person's true identity seems like the least those of us who don't have to deal with that in our lives could do.

I don't think that's realistic at all, to be honest. If you've been friends with Bill for decades, who is now Sarah, and you're playing Call of Duty like you have for years, you're not going to be focused on "I need to intentionally focus on calling her Sarah." Your mind will be on the activity, and it's entirely likely that you might slip up and say, "Hahahahaha, you totally smoked that newb Bill!" like you've said countless times in the past. The point, is that changing that association takes time to reprogram the brain. It has nothing to do with weaponizing, being a jerk, being respectful, whatever. It's how the brain works. And in those situations, I would like to think Sarah wouldn't have to wonder if you were being a jerk or not, and that decades of friendship gives you the benefit of the doubt of what your intent was/is, and just because you slipped up, it doesn't mean you're being disrespectful.

 

[Gradine]

I don't think that's realistic at all, to be honest. If you've been friends with Bill for decades, who is now Sarah, and you're playing Call of Duty like you have for years, you're not going to be focused on "I need to intentionally focus on calling her Sarah." Your mind will be on the activity, and it's entirely likely that you might slip up and say, "Hahahahaha, you totally smoked that newb Bill!" like you've said countless times in the past. The point, is that changing that association takes time to reprogram the brain. It has nothing to do with weaponizing, being a jerk, being respectful, whatever. It's how the brain works. And in those situations, I would like to think Sarah wouldn't have to wonder if you were being a jerk or not, and that decades of friendship gives you the benefit of the doubt of what your intent was/is, and just because you slipped up, it doesn't mean you're being disrespectful.

I don't think it's all unrealistic, but I'm also not saying that everyone should be perfect at all times all the time. The scenario I'm thinking of applies more to casual acquaintances rather than close lifelong friends. To err is human, and everyone, even the most respectful and caring of friends, is sure to slip up on occasion. I'm more trying to caution that "people make mistakes all the time" is not cover for not really bothering to try learning to use a person's true name/pronoun regularly.

 

[Mistwell]

I do not plan to make any kind of cannon in my game, and I don't think an elf cannon is a good idea, and I am not sure why the sexual identity of the cannon (elf or not) would be relevant. I mean, I suppose if I were going to make a cannon of some kind, it would likely be a gnome cannon because they like to tinker with stuff. And they'd likely blow themselves up frequently.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I suppose if I were going to make a cannon of some kind, it would likely be a gnome cannon because they like to tinker with stuff. And they'd likely blow themselves up frequently.

Which is for the best really.

 

[Mistwell]

Which is for the best really.

Thank you. I appreciate you catching my pass and making a fine dunk.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Thank you. I appreciate you catching my pass and making a fine dunk.

Well, dunking on gnomes is easy after all.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Satyrn]

This isn't a new thing, either.

You can still find people that insist on calling the Greatest of All Time Cassius Clay, because reasons, or something.

People, as a rule, suck.

"The Boxer formerly known as . . ." is just so wordy

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sadras]

...but because there's been such a high-profile push to weaponize pronouns against members of the trans community, there's a definite sensitivity to the wrong name/pronoun being used in spaces.

Maybe, I cannot say, from what I have seen the issue is really not about the he/she, I tend to think the majority of people are accepting of their use. The real pushback is for the new list of pronouns which have been created. Also there are members from the LGBQT+ community which oppose the new pronouns so you don't necessarily have a united monolithic community that subscribes to their usage.

 

[Gradine]

Maybe, I cannot say, from what I have seen the issue is really not about the he/she, I tend to think the majority of people are accepting of their use. The real pushback is for the new list of pronouns which have been created. Also there are members from the LGBQT+ community which oppose the new pronouns so you don't necessarily have a united monolithic community that subscribes to their usage.

I'm not really understanding how "xe" or "hir" are any more onerous than saying "he" or "his". People learn new words all the time, and most of them are not monosyllabic.

There's also always the singular "they", which again, predates both "he or she" and the generic "he", and which most modern grammarians have no concern over.

It's anecdotal, but the bulk of the membership of the LGBTQIA+ community that I interact with have zero problems with that, even the ones that don't subscribe to those pronouns themselves. The entire point of that community is being accepting of everybody for who they are and how they choose to be. I'm not saying I don't know or haven't heard of gay people who roll their eyes at "xe", but those people don't typically identify as anything other than "gay" or "lesbian" and not really with the entire queer alphabet soup community as a whole.

 

[LudicSavant]

Many animals can switch gender without magic so not sure why this is a shock. Wasn't Corellon originally described as androgynous as well?

Corellon canonically changed genders in older editions, yeah. Nothing new there.

 

[epithet]

Maybe, I cannot say, from what I have seen the issue is really not about the he/she, I tend to think the majority of people are accepting of their use. The real pushback is for the new list of pronouns which have been created. Also there are members from the LGBQT+ community which oppose the new pronouns so you don't necessarily have a united monolithic community that subscribes to their usage.

Maybe.

But, maybe, there is a different issue that is also at play here. I can only speak for myself, but I don't care what gender you are. At all. Ever.

And as long as we're just casual acquaintances, I never will.

Now, I get that for some people, their gender has become the most important aspect of their self image, and has become a thing they think about and fight over and strive toward or away from on a daily basis. I get that for them, it really, really matters what gender they are. It just doesn't matter to me, because it isn't going to change my interaction with any of them in any significant way. It is, for me, a non-issue.

Expecting me to remember your custom pronoun, or to even try to, is like expecting me to remember your kid's names. Sure, if we're friends, I'll do that. If we work together, I'll make an effort, out of courtesy. For most of the people I encounter, I just don't care. I'm happy for you to seek fulfillment in whatever form that comes for you. Raise a kid, climb a mountain, explore your gender identity, write a novel... you do you. Just don't expect me to care much.

People have this tendency to assume that the big-freakin'-deal things in their life are important to everyone. It's why parents tend to show strangers the pictures of their kid's 3rd birthday party, and go on and on about how "advanced" he is because blah blah blah. As a courtesy, most of us smile and nod at their iPhone screen while we ignore the picture and the anecdote, waiting for the parent to get it out of his system and be ready to get back to business. That same tendency, it seems to me, causes a perception among folks who get exercised about gender issues to divide people into the supportive "with us" group and the combative "against us" group, when--and again, I can speak only for myself--some of us just don't care.

That's why I'll call people a "him" or a "her" based on what seems correct, and if someone undertakes to correct me I'll smile and nod and play along, out of courtesy. I'm not going to learn a bunch of new pronouns, because I just really don't care.

Now, if we become friends, or co-workers, or family, or whatever--if I do actually care about you--then I'll start caring about what you care about. I'll learn your kids' names--and their birthdays--and I'll read your novel. I'll also take the time to understand any gender identity you care to explain, and--because I now care--remember what you want to be called.

Until then, however, I'll just make a judgment call on "him" or "her" and I won't feel bad at all about it if it isn't what you want to hear.