Willingly cloaked in silence

[IceBear]

Remember, the silence isn't affecting the creature, it's affecting the sound waves (if you will) within the area. Thus, the SR doesn't matter.

IceBear

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Thanks for the replys, but I still find myself with the original confusion ;-(
It just seems odd that a creature with SR would be automatically affected by silence, but that same creature could walk through a wall of fire or someother area effect (are there any acceptions?) Are there any other area effect spells that would ignore SR?

Control Water, Control Weather, and Control Winds all ignore SR because they directly affect the enviroment.

Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Ghost Sound do not allow for SR.

Silence does not affect the creature. Silence stops the words. It is a little odd, but no odder than Invisibility.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: it is vague

but its been errata'ed to be as he says.

technically its an illusion (glamer) and should allow a will save to disbelieve like it says in PH 158. but the errata says the spell's "special" instead of just making it a different school.

personally i hate the errata'ed silence spell. I dont think it should be an illusion spell if it acts that way, but thats my opinion.

but of course, i dont know why the HELL its not also a wiz/sor spell either.....

joe b.

So it has been errataed so everyone in the AoE can make a save, not jsut the target of the spell?

If so, good, it was way too good for 2nd level with that save special crap. It got to the silly point where every npc caster had to ahve the majority if not all there spells silented because every idiot and there brother cast silence on the tank who then charged the spell casters.

 

[BlackBart]

From the FAQ, for what it's worth.

Older editions of the game listed the silence spell in the Alteration school, but now silence is part of the Illusion school. Does this mean that anyone in the area of effect can try to disbelieve the spell, negating most of its effect for enemy spellcasters?
No, if you could disbelieve a silence spell, its save listing would be "Will disbelief." Silence removes all noise in its area and nobody gets a save against that. If the spell is actually targeted on a creature or on a creature's equipment, that creature gets a Will save to negate the spell. If the save succeeds, the spell fails and the area is not silenced.

 

[jgbrowning]

ok, lets argue here

Please read Sean K Reynold's rant on Invisibility being an illusion and apply for silence as well and you will see that it's not as hard to swallow being an glamer.

From the SRD:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where subject in this case is the sound in the area.

IceBear

ok lets argue.

By the SRD defination a "glamers spell changes a subject's sensory qualities making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."

ok i agree so far . and i read SKR rant (excerpt below)
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/invismindaffecting.html

"Invisibility doesn't affect minds. It affects light. It affects the light around the target creature. That's why it is a "Target: You or a creature [touched]" spell instead of a "Target: everyone in line of sight" spell.
Invisibility is not a mind-affecting spell. "

and i have a lot of problems with that for various reasons most of them hard to explain.. so bare with me...

1. if invisibility effects light, changing light's sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualities of the "creature" or "object" touched.... there wouldn't be a saving throw. light would never get a saving throw, even if it was the light around someone who didnt want to be invisible. nor would magic resistance stop invisibility.

2. if silence effects sound, changing sounds sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualites of the "creature" or "object" touched.... there wouldn't be a saving throw for silence either. EVEN when cast on an opponent, because you're not actually targeting the oppenant, your targeting the sound around an opponant remember?, which as an object wouldn't get a saving throw since its harmless.
Why would MR ever effect silence if it's REALLY effecting sound?


shall i go on? sure lets...

3. what happened to all that light that was bouncing off the characters before the invisibility spell? still bouncing around in the special sheath, it would have to be since its not getting out or people could see the invisible creature? is it collecting more and more light and not letting it out?

4. if the sheath actually BENDS light, how does the character within the sheath of light see OUT, with no light coming in because the sheath BENDS it all around the character? If the sheath lets light in, so the player can see how does it bend it so others cant see the character unless the light never gets out of the sheath. Wouldn't all that light build up over time until the creature inside the sheat was effectifly blinded?


anyway i think you get my point. It would be easier if they would have just NOT made invisibility and silence illusion spells, because they really break so many of the illusion spell rules.

Now transmutation...... that would fit much better "transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." seems to fit perfectly. Suddenly the properties of light and sound are CHANGED.. so we can just say its MAGIC and not have deal with all the faux explination stuff that happens when we have to deal with illusions that dont allow saves when interacted with.

joe b.

 

[Blood Jester]

Re: ok, lets argue here

ok lets argue.

By the SRD defination a "glamers spell changes a subject's sensory qualities making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."

ok i agree so far . and i read SKR rant (excerpt below)
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/invismindaffecting.html

"Invisibility doesn't affect minds. It affects light. It affects the light around the target creature. That's why it is a "Target: You or a creature [touched]" spell instead of a "Target: everyone in line of sight" spell.
Invisibility is not a mind-affecting spell. "

and i have a lot of problems with that for various reasons most of them hard to explain.. so bare with me...

1. if invisibility effects light, changing light's sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualities of the "creature" or "object" touched.... there wouldn't be a saving throw. light would never get a saving throw, even if it was the light around someone who didnt want to be invisible. nor would magic resistance stop invisibility.

Correct, but it would stop the SPELL from 'taking' on the target, and thus the spell fails.

2. if silence effects sound, changing sounds sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualites of the "creature" or "object" touched.... there wouldn't be a saving throw for silence either. EVEN when cast on an opponent, because you're not actually targeting the oppenant, your targeting the sound around an opponant remember?, which as an object wouldn't get a saving throw since its harmless.
Why would MR ever effect silence if it's REALLY effecting sound?

See above, it affects the spell not the spell effects.

shall i go on? sure lets...

3. what happened to all that light that was bouncing off the characters before the invisibility spell? still bouncing around in the special sheath, it would have to be since its not getting out or people could see the invisible creature? is it collecting more and more light and not letting it out?

4. if the sheath actually BENDS light, how does the character within the sheath of light see OUT, with no light coming in because the sheath BENDS it all around the character? If the sheath lets light in, so the player can see how does it bend it so others cant see the character unless the light never gets out of the sheath. Wouldn't all that light build up over time until the creature inside the sheat was effectifly blinded?

First point 3:
The light is not 'bouncing around in the sheath, the magic has absorbed it, light gone bye-bye.

For point 4:
Lets not just use the old 'It's magic, silly!' Let's try, who says no light gets to the targets eyes? The light waves are duplicated by the magic. One set passes through to the other side to let those on the other side 'see' through the target. The other set of light rays go to the targets eyes so he can see. As far as light build up, or some of the second light set bouncing around inside the 'shell', see answer to point 3 above.

anyway i think you get my point. It would be easier if they would have just NOT made invisibility and silence illusion spells, because they really break so many of the illusion spell rules.

Now transmutation...... that would fit much better "transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." seems to fit perfectly. Suddenly the properties of light and sound are CHANGED.. so we can just say its MAGIC and not have deal with all the faux explination stuff that happens when we have to deal with illusions that dont allow saves when interacted with.

joe b.

But yes, they should be Trans. spell IMHO as well.

 

[hong]

Aren't area spells negated for creatures with SR (on a failed caster level check) when the enter the area? What would that mean for a Silence spell?

The effect would be negated for the creature only; the spell itself is unaffected.


PS. I put you back in my sig. I hope you're happy.

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re: ok, lets argue here

Correct, but it would stop the SPELL from 'taking' on the target, and thus the spell fails.



See above, it affects the spell not the spell effects.



First point 3:
The light is not 'bouncing around in the sheath, the magic has absorbed it, light gone bye-bye.

For point 4:
Lets not just use the old 'It's magic, silly!' Let's try, who says no light gets to the targets eyes? The light waves are duplicated by the magic. One set passes through to the other side to let those on the other side 'see' through the target. The other set of light rays go to the targets eyes so he can see. As far as light build up, or some of the second light set bouncing around inside the 'shell', see answer to point 3 above.




But yes, they should be Trans. spell IMHO as well.

I agree with Blood Jester - especially about the Trans. The saving throw area with silence is one of those areas where I try not too think too hard about it because it just doesn't make sense (Blood Jester's opinion on the spell just not coming into effect is the best one I can think of). What makes more sense to me is the silence coming into being, but not moving with the target. I guess the real reason it works this way is for balance as silence is pretty powerful for a 2nd level spell.

IceBear