D&D 5E Wish and the requirement removal

[Asisreo]

Wish is already the spell. It can accomplish nearly anything at a risk. It can also duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower with no risk. It doesn't need to also have "requirements" interpreted in the broadest sense possible. A sense which is obviously broken and requires hard DM restriction based on multiple examples that I and others have provided in this thread.

Obviously do whatever you want in your own campaign, but caveat emptor.

I mean, I know I can do anything in my campaign. Unless you're saying that you would've hunted me down and John Wick me and my players over my interpretation of Wish.

I think the 5 things I listed: casting time, components, concentration, targeting, and Attack Rolls are fine. They probably don't break the game all that much. Sure, you can concentrate on two spells but that just means you pretend like you're Acerak. Plus, any other spell you cast between the long rests are guaranteed not to also be level 9 (barring Epic Boons). There's the thing with guaranteed attacks hitting but most attack roll spells kinda suck.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

…, you've had to create a new, vague rule with case-by-case enforcement that no two DMs will run the same way.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I see wish being the ur-example of "rulings not rules." It is the spell; the one that lets the players mess with the entire world. In some campaigns, that means calling down the moon(s) or erasing entire armies from existance. In others, it doesn't.

 

[Lanefan]

Limiting a full Wish to only being able to replicate another spell is boring as ****, in part because there's a bunch of relatively innocuous-but-amusing things that no other spell can do.

You fumble and shatter the McGuffin the adventure revolves around. "I wish that didn't happen" seems a perfectly valid use of a full Wish in this case...but is there any other spell that can undo an event like that?

In a moment of lunacy - or because you're controlled somehow, or because you just really want a comfortable night's sleep - you wish for a four-poster feather bed. It appears, in the middle of the dungeon and unable to fit out of the door of the room it appears in. Completely innocuous and probably a waste of a Wish - but no other spell can do this.

Let it do anything, for cryin' out loud - with the known-to-all proviso that over-the-top or overly-greedy Wishes will not work as expected.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Limiting a full Wish to only being able to replicate another spell is boring as ****, in part because there's a bunch of relatively innocuous-but-amusing things that no other spell can do.

You fumble and shatter the McGuffin the adventure revolves around. "I wish that didn't happen" seems a perfectly valid use of a full Wish in this case...but is there any other spell that can undo an event like that?

In a moment of lunacy - or because you're controlled somehow, or because you just really want a comfortable night's sleep - you wish for a four-poster feather bed. It appears, in the middle of the dungeon and unable to fit out of the door of the room it appears in. Completely innocuous and probably a waste of a Wish - but no other spell can do this.

Let it do anything, for cryin' out loud - with the known-to-all proviso that over-the-top or overly-greedy Wishes will not work as expected.

So, I know you don't 5e, but Wish has essentially a "free" use in that it can be used to replicate another spell without costs, either by wish or for that spell. This is nice because it allows you access to a very versatile spell slot.

But, Wish has another use, which is along the lines you say -- you Wish for something and the GM determines if that's a good something you get or a not as good something that you partially get or is otherwise corrupted. Or, perhaps, fails outright because it's too big an ask. Doing this kind of wish results in some pretty rough side-effects which include a 1 in 3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again.

So, Wish for your bed, but you probably want to couch that as a use of the Creation spell.

 

[Lanefan]

So, I know you don't 5e, but Wish has essentially a "free" use in that it can be used to replicate another spell without costs, either by wish or for that spell. This is nice because it allows you access to a very versatile spell slot.

But, Wish has another use, which is along the lines you say -- you Wish for something and the GM determines if that's a good something you get or a not as good something that you partially get or is otherwise corrupted. Or, perhaps, fails outright because it's too big an ask. Doing this kind of wish results in some pretty rough side-effects which include a 1 in 3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again.

I'd rather drop the 1-in-3 chance of losing the spell and instead just deal with it by rulings. (I seem to recall - was it 4e that had it only able to replicate another spell?)

And how does that work with Wishes from items e.g. a Ring of Wishes or a Deck of Many Things or bestowed by a Genie? (i.e. the sort of source where 99+% of the Wishes in my games come from these days)

 

[Asisreo]

I'd rather drop the 1-in-3 chance of losing the spell and instead just deal with it by rulings. (I seem to recall - was it 4e that had it only able to replicate another spell?)

And how does that work with Wishes from items e.g. a Ring of Wishes or a Deck of Many Things or bestowed by a Genie? (i.e. the sort of source where 99+% of the Wishes in my games come from these days)

If you cast Wish from a magic item and incurred the penalty, you wouldn't be able to cast Wish using your own spellslots/another item/same item. If you ask for a Genie to cast it, They would incur the penalty since they cast it, but you wouldn't incur anything.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'd rather drop the 1-in-3 chance of losing the spell and instead just deal with it by rulings. (I seem to recall - was it 4e that had it only able to replicate another spell?)

And how does that work with Wishes from items e.g. a Ring of Wishes or a Deck of Many Things or bestowed by a Genie? (i.e. the sort of source where 99+% of the Wishes in my games come from these days)

Well, I suppose it's good you don't 5e, right?

 

[Todd Roybark]

So, Wish for your bed, but you probably want to couch that as a use of the Creation spell.

Which is exactly my point, that one can overlook the fact the Wish spell duplicates a spell, and approach the Wish spell from the perspective of it duplicating an effect.

The DMG has limited guidelines on the mechanical aspects of creating a magic spell. Presuming that most DMs running a high level game are going to be, somewhat familiar with the spells in the game, it is not unreasonable for a player to ask use Wish to duplicate a potential spell, or an ad hoc custom spell....something not currently published.

To my mind, any DM, adjudicating a high level game, should be conversant with the rules to be able to eyeball what is and what is not an 8th level effect.

To hit someone with the non basic use penalties for the Wish spell, for the crime of asking to use the duplicate spell effect in a creative manner, that does not exactly mimic an existing spell, but has an effect that is not outside the scope of an 8th level spell effect....
............Is poor refereeing.

“Papa Smurf Always Says: Spirit Guardians can only be cast on your self, even with Wish”

If one can create a custom spell that is Spirit Guardians but cast on another target then self,
why should one not be able to do so, on the fly with Wish, without severe penalties?

It is a creativity tax, that people are objecting to. Not attempts to rules lawyering.
It is a pushing back to grappled sphincter style rulings...

 

[Asisreo]

Which is exactly my point, that one can overlook the fact the Wish spell duplicates a spell, and approach the Wish spell from the perspective of it duplicating an effect.

The DMG has limited guidelines on the mechanical aspects of creating a magic spell. Presuming that most DMs running a high level game are going to be, somewhat familiar with the spells in the game, it is not unreasonable for a player to ask use Wish to duplicate a potential spell, or an ad hoc custom spell....something not currently published.

To my mind, any DM, adjudicating a high level game, should be conversant with the rules to be able to eyeball what is and what is not an 8th level effect.

To hit someone with the non basic use penalties for the Wish spell, for the crime of asking to use the duplicate spell effect in a creative manner, that does not exactly mimic an existing spell, but has an effect that is not outside the scope of an 8th level spell effect....
............Is poor refereeing.

“Papa Smurf Always Says: Spirit Guardians can only be cast on your self, even with Wish”

If one can create a custom spell that is Spirit Guardians but cast on another target then self,
why should one not be able to do so, on the fly with Wish, without severe penalties?

It is a creativity tax, that people are objecting to. Not rules lawyering.
It is a pushing back to grappled sphincter style rulings.

Why shouldn't you? Because you only have 1 wish a day. So you can wish however you like but you have 24 hours before Wish can help you with the consequences.

 

[Fanaelialae]

All I know is that if someone wanted to use Wish to teleport a 20 foot long tree trunk by duplicating an 8th level spell or under, I'm not going to make him roll to forever lose the spell or be weakened. If you guys want to gimp your players like that, feel free.

Sure, if it isn't the player attempting to abuse the spell, go for it. To borrow your own suggestion, that's why we have DMs.

IMO, it is a lot more functional to say that the DM is free to loosen the restrictions of a spell when using wish, provided the request is reasonable, than it is to say that all requirements can be ignored but that the DM should veto any abuses.

Sure, it's not unreasonable to rule that teleporting a 20 ft tree trunk via wish doesn't weaken you. Maybe the wish even cuts the trunk in half so it does fit inside the cube. Maybe it just works.

But that doesn't mean that wishing to teleport a moon is equally reasonable. That should, at a minimum, confer weakness. That is well outside of what teleport is intended to be capable of, not just something that meets the volume limitation but not the shape of the 10 ft cube.