D&D 5E Wish & Simulacrum

[DM-Rocco]

My problem with simulacrum isn't the exploits. It is that using the spell purely as intended is unbelievably powerful. You double all but one of your spell slots. You get two spells per round, plus bonus actions and reactions. You get to concentrate on two things at once. And you get to do all this at 13th level, which is in the range of levels that you might actually reach in a typical campaign.

There are very few spells that I am moved to ban in 5E, and most of them are for gameplay or world-building reasons. Simulacrum is the only 5E spell that I consider too powerful to live.

Shenanigans aside, the spell by itself it's that bad. Yes, you get extra spells and such. But it does cost a crap ton to cast, normally you can't get the spells back, and it can be dispelled. A clever DM would have every spellcaster attempt to dispel it immediately. I know you can break this spell, but my issue really isn't with this spell but rather the 33% never casting wish again BS and how to avoid that and if it means breaking another spell to avoid it, then that is what must be done. I mean, hell, pull the you gain 5 years BS from 1st edition over the 33% never casting it again BS.

 

[Frozenstep]

I have a player who has used it and it's really not as great at it seems at first glance.

The simulacrum can't recover resources, and has half hit points. Over the course of an adventure, it is going to have a relatively marginal impact. Let's say that the adventure is a week long. The wizard hasn't doubled his spells. He's increased his capacity by 1/7th. And that's if the simulacrum actually survives, which is hardly a given with its HP.

The biggest impact is double spell casting in those rounds that it is used. Which is potent, but given how HP scale relative damage spells, by no means OP IME. If it were, dipping 2 levels of fighter (for action surge) would be a no brainier for a wizard.

Maybe at level 17+, when you can wish a new one into existence for no cost, it might be a little strong. But they still have to expend their 9th level spell for that day, which is a big opportunity cost. If you do it, you don't have Foresight or True Poly or any other 9th level spell for that day. Additionally, most things get a little OP at 17+, so it isn't something I stress about.

For your first point, you can keep making new simulacrums. This becomes a problem depending on how your campaign is paced. If you got fights every day and no time to spare for making a simulacrum, then sure. Give the spellcaster literally one free day? Boom, new simulacrum. Unless you choke the resources of the party, I guess, but then you start getting into annoying territory that a single spell shouldn't force you into.

There was a famous quote on GITP I remember. "Thou shall not balance features by making them annoying to use." That's what I feel like simulacrum does. If you don't start creating situations for players with this spell in mind, it gets stronger then it should. Bad design.

It's not just double spells, it's double concentration, and it's for every round that you and the simulacrum survive. It's another reaction, so it can be another counterspeller. It's another user of magic items, and works great with things like spell scrolls, beads of fireball, wand of lightning bolt.

Not to mention you don't have to use it on yourself. Party knows a friendly and powerful npc? You better come up with a reason why they're too busy to spare 12 hours to be duplicated. Have more than one NPC like that? Now it starts to feel targeted. That's an annoying position to be put in as a DM. Even without a powerful npc, other party members can sometimes be good targets, especially strong archers.

It could be insane. It could be just alright. I don't think it's good design.

 

[DM-Rocco]

As do I. Prior editions handled it better by placing a cost on it, either 3E XP cost or AD&D aging. The way 5E focuses, I'd probably give it a component cost and remove the ability to gain money.

I would struggle with the component cost unless it was a static cost, like you must have a 1,000 GP gem that isn't consumed when cast. I say this because it seems every DM that I get is very stingy with resources at low levels, then in mid levels you have some much you can buy everything in the player's handbook so they think resources aren't needed, and they fail to award additional resources so by the time you get to cast Wish you don't have what's required. Case in point, right now I am sitting on something like 10,000 gp in resources at 11th level, but we are entering the phase where the DM just doesn't award gold or whatever. So let's say that you had a 5,000gp diamond that you needed to be consumed for a single wish, I wouldn't be able to cast the spell more than once or twice.

In third edition, in Epic play, yes, I did cast a crap load of wishes to gain some permanent effects. So yes, it is the most powerful spell in the game and you can break it. I can also break the game with time stop and delayed blast fireballs, wall of force and a stinking cloud, hex and telekinesis, being a Warlock Sorcerer (nuff said) or even just being a halfling warlock riding around always invisible on top of a Pact of the Chain Quasit. The point is that you can break the game in so many other ways at lower levels, so a higher level spell should have strong functionality with few restrictions in my opinion.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I treat simulacrum as another pc. I suggest DM do also.

I'm trying to figure out what makes simulacrum in this scenario worse than the party just going and finding a high-level NPC wizard and hiring them to come along and help with a particularly nasty situation, which doesn't even require a spell slot.

Both sound like the most reasonable solution to me.

 

[Umbran]

For your first point, you can keep making new simulacrums.

The spell takes 12 hours to cast, or is using up the most powerful spell in the game to do it.

 

[Frozenstep]

The spell takes 12 hours to cast, or is using up the most powerful spell in the game to do it.

Literally my next sentence after that quote explains why I don't think that helps the balance of it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I change wish’s 33% chance of losing access to the spell to last “a year and a day”. Some other 5e stuff uses that language. If you’re running a lightning campaign where there is no downtime, then yeah, you might as well never be able to cast it again. But if your campaign has a more plausible amount of downtime for your epic wizard, it’s essentially a 33% chance of a long cool down.

 

[Umbran]

Literally my next sentence after that quote explains why I don't think that helps the balance of it.

Limiting the character to 4 hours a day of activity isn't "annoying". It is a rather stringent limit on the character's utility when using the spell.

Don't get me wrong - it is a powerful spell of significant impact when the PCs can plan to have it in play. But the casting requirements mean it isn't a thing you can expect to have around every day.

 

[Frozenstep]

Shenanigans aside, the spell by itself it's that bad. Yes, you get extra spells and such. But it does cost a crap ton to cast, normally you can't get the spells back, and it can be dispelled.

"Thou shall not balance features by making them annoying to use." Raw power tamed by annoying costs isn't great design. You can prepare it days in advance and then simply not make use of it until you really need it, at which point you trivialize what was supposed to be an epic boss fight. Or just copy an archer.

A clever DM would have every spellcaster attempt to dispel it immediately.

And now you get into a situation where a player can feel like you are targeting them and specifically designing encounters to shut down their toys. That's not a deal-breaker, but it is kind of annoying that a spell puts you in that awkward position.

 

[Frozenstep]

Limiting the character to 4 hours a day of activity isn't "annoying". It is a rather stringent limit on the character's utility when using the spell.

Don't get me wrong - it is a powerful spell of significant impact when the PCs can plan to have it in play. But the casting requirements mean it isn't a thing you can expect to have around every day.

Things can be stringent limits and annoying at the same time. The point is the spell can greatly vary in power depending on the pace of the campaign. Big fights everyday all the time? Weak spell. Big fights every other day? Insanely overpowered spell. That's horrible design.

It's too much raw power trying to be constrained by conditions that may or may not prevent it from being useful.