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Wish spell used to become half dragon...

Iron_Chef

Villager
A PC has a wish spell and wants to use it to become a half-dragon (red). The wish is being granted/cast by Bane (LE god of tyranny) for faithful services rendered (the PC is a devout Banite). Couple questions:

#1: Can the player do this?

#2: I know red dragons are supposed to be CE, but Tiamat is part red dragon and she's LE and lives in Hell not the Abyss, so I'm not sure if the PC's alignment needs to change to reflect his new (red) draconic nature.

How would you guys handle it? Also, what ECL is a half red dragon? This is going to screw up the party level for calculating XP. The PC in question isn't that tough (more rogue than fighter with his Batman-like utility belt) and we don't have any other fighters whose toes this change would be stepping on.

Any game balance issues I should worry about? The red dragon fire breath would sure come in handy when the party goes up against hordes of vampires, mummies and other nasty undead soon...

The game is tomorrow (Saturday) so fast feedback is appreciated! Thanks. :)
 
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Viktyr Gehrig

Villager
Half-Dragons don't have alignment restrictions. I'd say Wish or Miracle is well-powered enough to turn someone into a Half-Dragon.

It tacks an extra three levels onto him (four, if he has wings) that he should 'work off' before he starts gaining levels again.

The breath weapon is nice, but only once a day. Anything that only happens once a day isn't too worrisome, in my opinion.
 

shilsen

Villager
I would definitely not allow this IMC. As written, I don't think a Wish spell is powerful enough to allow this. Note that the PHB's examples of typical powers of a Wish spell do not allow the duplicating of another 9th lvl spell (so a caster couldn't use Shapechange to temporarily become a half-dragon, whereas this PC wants it to be a permanent change). A single Wish can provide only a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Compare that to the type of advantages this PC will get with the template.
 

AuraSeer

Prismatic Programmer
I certainly wouldn't allow wishing for a +ECL template, because it's equivalent to gaining experience levels. That's clearly unbalancing. Would you allow a Wiz17 to use a wish to advance to Wiz20?
 

Sir Whiskers

Villager
Would you allow a character to use a wish spell to immediately gain 3 levels? I thought not, but what about this:

Allow the pc's wish to be fulfilled, but only after he has gained enough xp's to balance the ecl of the template (+3)? In other words, instead of gaining 3 new character levels, he keeps accumulating xp until he has enough to pay for the template, at which time he becomes a half-dragon. You could even play it up, having his body change over time, giving him some abilities at certain points. His wish will be fulfilled, but not immediately. Another option is to allow the character to immediately lose his last 3 character levels and gain the full template right away.

Of course, if he has to spend xp's for the template, he may not be interested, but that's his choice.
 
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Pax

Villager
Despite the words of my two predecessors, this IS fully within the power of a Wish.

Savage Species specifies that a Wish can (with significant risk) grant an entire template, or change of species. In essence, it can mimic the Polymorph Other spell, with all the "gets EX abilities", and soon, of Shapechange.

Note, the person's ECL does increase ... but their XP total does not, so it will be a LONG time before they gain a new level.

Or. though this is typically for other sorts of Transformation Rituals, the character could "trade in" a few levels in exchange for the ECL of the template (going from, say, "Human Fighter(10)" to "Half-Dragon Fighter(7)" ... both ECL 10 characters).

I see no real problems with this usage of a Wish; Bane himself would consider it reasonable, though a further quest to gain the FULL abilities of the template might be added -- perhaps, to accomplish the transformation, the character must consume (as part of a ritual) the heart of a good-aligned dragon (age/CR appropriate for the party), or similar.
 

Lord Pendragon

Villager
Pax said:
Despite the words of my two predecessors, this IS fully within the power of a Wish.
This is not within the powers of a Wish, as outlined in the spell description. From the SRD:
A wish can do any one of the following:

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not from a school prohibited to the character.

Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not from a school prohibited to the character.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s from a prohibited school.

Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s from a prohibited school.

Undo the harmful effects of many other spells.
Create a valuable item, even a magic item, of up to 15,000 gp in value.

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects must be cured of the same type of affliction. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.

Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the feat takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place these creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate and SR.

Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including the character's last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate and SR.
None of these things include granting +3 levels worth of power. The only way that a Wish could do what is being asked is by falling under the DM-approval clause:
The character may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the opportunity to fulfill the character's request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert the character's intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Now, should a DM allow this sort of Wish to be granted? I'd say yes, but only by following the advice of either Sir Whiskers or Pax, or both.
 

Pax

Villager
Lord Pendragon said:
This is not within the powers of a Wish, as outlined in the spell description. From the SRD:
A largely irrelevant quote, no offense. As I said, as cited in Savage Species ... a volume not (yet) included in the OGL, and therefor, not included in the SRD.

From Savage Species itself, on page 150:

Casting wish to become a new kind of creature, with full access to all extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities (see End Result, below), while retaining Intelligence, memory, and personality, falls under the "wishing for greater effects" rules in the spell description. While this is the quickest method of transformation and potentially the cheapest, it has substatial risks.[/b]
The Wish spell, as I stated before, is fully CAPABLE of achieving the desired results ... there are simply some not-inconsequential risks involved.

None of these things include granting +3 levels worth of power. The only way that a Wish could do what is being asked is by falling under the DM-approval clause:
That still falls within the range of a wish spells power. Not, I never said it was within a wish spells SAFE range of power, only that a wish could indeed achieve the stated end.
 

Olive

Villager
Savage Sepcies outline the way in which a Wish can be used to make a creatue a different type of creature. It is more talking about chinging into a specific creature rather than adding a template, but the point is the same. It recomends making spellcraft rolls for the granted abilites...

now givent hat Bane himself is casting the spell, this overcomes the challenge of this method... so I don't know. I'd be inclined to let Bane do more or less what ever he wants, but I'd be tempted to use something else from Savage Species: the Ritual of Unlearning. This basically allows the character to swap out character levels for ECL. So if the template has a ECL of 4, then you take 4 levels off of the PC (i.e. he's a human barbarian 16, you give him the template and he becomes a half-human/half-red dragon barbarian 10)

This also fits in with a kinda lawful evil 'give you want you want, but you haven' thought this through proerly have you' kinda approach. Alternatively you could offer this deal to the player...

I like Savage Species. I like it a lot.
 

Iron_Chef

Villager
Thanks for the feedback; very helpful, especially Pax and his Savage Species info. I forgot to check that chapter, LOL, and just skipped to the back to find the ECL.

So, we have three options:

1) go with him losing three existing character levels (ouch!);

2) getting the full template in exchange for undertaking and successfully completing a quest of comparable risk of Bane's choice, with the reward for failure being (predictably) death and eternal punishment---with the 9th level character in question being unable to 'level" up after gaining the template until level 13;

3) gaining the new abilities over the next three "levels" (he won't be going up levels, but will get more of his template powers instead until achieving full transformation when his XP reaches enough to be level 12, making him still a level 9 character, but fully half-red dragon... Basically something like this:

level "1" +4 Str, +1 Con, +1 Int, +1 Cha; claw/claw/bite
level "2" +2 Str, +1 Con, +1 Int, +1 Cha, breath weapon 1/week
level "3" +2 Str, Breath weapon 1/day, all HD advance one type (d12 max), wings (if applicable--not to this PC).

I would say any of these options make it a "fair" use of a wish, but altogether much less palatable of a decision to make.


NEW QUESTION: If the player balks at this, what should he wish for? Can he wish for a feat?

He is a LE Banite fighter 2/rogue 4/man of will 3 (Swashbuckling Adventures PrC that makes him immune to bluff, intimidate, fear and mind-affecting magic but unable to use spells or spell-like abilities). He dual wields two magic rapiers (one +1 flaming and one +1), he has a ring of invisibility and ring of +1 natural armor.
He has just gotten Spring Attack as his 9th level feat, and has a 20 Intelligence because he loves them skill points, LOL. He stocks up on mundane but deadly goodies like paralysis pellets, poison, disease spreaders and other gadgets like an evil Batman. He can fly 1/day (hollow bones) and has darkvision (cat's eyes) thanks to previous infernal pacts with Bane for services rendered unto his glory, LOL (messing up a rather nasty Cyricist conspiracy in Zhentil Keep). Suggestions on what to give the well-dressed Banite who has everything?
 

Lord Pendragon

Villager
Pax said:


A largely irrelevant quote, no offense. As I said, as cited in Savage Species ... a volume not (yet) included in the OGL, and therefor, not included in the SRD.

Thanks for providing the quote, Pax. Then if Savage Species is considered canon in a campaign, then yes, Wish can do what's been asked. Otherwise, from the SRD, it can be considered possible but not assured--as the DM decides, based on the last clause of the Core spell description of Wish.
 

Pax

Villager
Lord Pendragon said:
Thanks for providing the quote, Pax. Then if Savage Species is considered canon in a campaign, then yes, Wish can do what's been asked. Otherwise, from the SRD, it can be considered possible but not assured--as the DM decides, based on the last clause of the Core spell description of Wish.
Even based solely on your own quote, it can. Wish can do ANYthing; the listed effects in the PHB are not all of what Whish can do, they are what it can do safely and unambiguously, with no DM adjudicationof "can it or can't it" involved.

Again -- it is fully within the powers of a wish, butit is NOT within the SAFE powers of a wish.
 

gariig

Villager
Personally, I would allow it. However, they would not just get the template slapped onto them right out. I would do some of the suggestions already given.

1. They lose character levels until their ECL is the same as it was before. The Fighter 14 turns into a Half-dragon/Human Fighter 10(or 11 depending on the ECL of the template).

2. the Template is given a Savage species treatment and can level up in the template. However, they would lose 1 character level to get the first level in the template.

That's the only ways I can think of. Also, someone might want a huge favor done for them to allow this. Maybe some god of the dragons will require a srvice to allow the power of a dragon into a mere mortal.

Gariig
 

AuraSeer

Prismatic Programmer
Casting wish to become a new kind of creature, with full access to all extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities (see End Result, below), while retaining Intelligence, memory, and personality, falls under the "wishing for greater effects" rules in the spell description.
Exactly.
"Wishing for greater effects" is solely at the discretion of the DM. A caster attempt to wish for anything-- even to turn himself into an epic Wiz999/Ftr999/Rog999 greater deity half-dragon vampire lich woodchuck-- but that doesn't mean it will work. The DM is free to interpret the request any way he wants, without even having to invoke Rule 0.
 

maddman75

Villager
Here's my take on Wish. There is no limit on Wish - the spell undoes reality and redoes it according to the wish of the caster.

In this case, adding a template is beyond the safe and known powers of the spell. So it will happen, but it may not happen in the way the player thinks it will, or there may be unintended consequences.

I'd allow it, and do the 'you don't go up for three levels' route. I'd also have the character lose himself to the power of his dragonsblood. Make him roll Will saves when damaged to avoid a rage. Give him a ferocious appetite for valuable gems.

ANother way would be to have him captured by a dragon worshpping cult that choose him as their champion. THey then proceed to remove limbs and replace them with draconic ones. Maybe even some vestigial wings. Not bad, but not what the player wanted either.

WIshing for stuff more powerful than what is listed in the book is DANGEROUS. Most importantly, do not tell him exactly how you are going to do this before he chooses.
 

Lord Pendragon

Villager
Pax said:


Even based solely on your own quote, it can. Wish can do ANYthing; the listed effects in the PHB are not all of what Whish can do, they are what it can do safely and unambiguously, with no DM adjudicationof "can it or can't it" involved.

Again -- it is fully within the powers of a wish, butit is NOT within the SAFE powers of a wish.
?? I'm somewhat confused. My contention is that Wish cannot allow what is being asked as a matter of course, not that it cannot allow it at all. For instance, the spell Summon Monster III allows a wizard to call forth a Fiendish Dire Bat. This can't be countered by the DM without using Rule 0. According to the rules, Summon Monster III = Fiendish Dire Bat.

The Wish spell also has a set number of effects that it can achieve in standard play. I quoted this in my post earlier. Without the DM invoking Rule 0, Wish can have these effects without fail.

However, using a Wish for anything else is automatically a matter of DM discretion, even without Rule 0. So it depends entirely on the DM. While you obviously believe it is possible to do so, in my game it most likely would not. And the point is, we are both playing by the core rules. My assertion that Wish cannot grant the half-dragon template is absolutely legal, without using Rule 0.

Hence why I wrote:
it can be considered possible but not assured
in my last post. But perhaps what I was (badly, it seems,) trying to say can better be described in a post by another member:
"Wishing for greater effects" is solely at the discretion of the DM. A caster attempt to wish for anything-- even to turn himself into an epic Wiz999/Ftr999/Rog999 greater deity half-dragon vampire lich woodchuck-- but that doesn't mean it will work. The DM is free to interpret the request any way he wants, without even having to invoke Rule 0.
 

niteshade6

Villager
I think if had players try this, the wish would work and the player would be hit a polymorph other and turned into a half dragon. I suspect this is not a legal polymorph, but I'd make an exception here. But of course if somebody hit him with a dispel magic he'd pop back into his original form if they beat his caster level.
 

EPRock

Slaughter McSlaughter
Since a God is providing the Power

He says that it is a wish, but since it is done by a God, I would say that it is not a Wish as per the spell, but as a Wish by the god. (As the DM you can make the God do anything you want to).

I like some of the ideas provided by the earlier threads where the character would not gain / lose anything, but changes would start happening as the character would be gaining levels.

IE would gain a partial strength gain at the first level, then another strength gain at the 2nd level, then the natural armor, strength, and con gain at the last level.
 

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