Wishes question

So if I Wish for fast healing 100 for myself, and pay the XP cost of the Wish, I actually wind up with much more XP than when I started and fast healing 100? Can't you see where this is going? Gaining XP tp slow down later advancement is not a sufficient "penalty" to prevent absurd Wishes (like, by analogy, "I Wish to gain 5 levels"). That is the point I am mkaing.

You are a fighter level 5, then you get the wish and you get fast healing x.
The DM thinks this is a +2 LA so he gives you enough XP to go to level 7, but you are still level 5. To get to level 6 you need enough XP to go to level 8.

Someday the rest of the party will be +2 levels ahead from you, but you will have your fast healing. If you start with extra XP this day takes a bit longer to come. If not it comes in 2 levels :p

The only problem is that before someday comes, the rest of the party is without fast healing - which means that your ECL is +2 higher than theirs. However that will happen no matter what, if you get fast healing x.

One solution would be to delete some levels (and the XP too) get the fast healing and have equal ECL with the rest of the party. This benefits you because at higher levels you wont be 2 levels behind (if the LA is +2). Also saves the DM from trying to make balanced encounters.

Or the DM can give all of you something to raise your ECLs.
 

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The only problem is that before someday comes, the rest of the party is without fast healing - which means that your ECL is +2 higher than theirs.

One solution would be to delete some levels (and the XP too) get the fast healing and have equal ECL with the rest of the party. This benefits you because at higher levels you wont be 2 levels behind (if the LA is +2). Also saves the DM from trying to make balanced encounters.

I agree that this would work balance-wise, but i wouldn't penalize a character XP for wishing for fast healing 5 - too harsh. I would more likely tone it down to an approppraite level, or just give the player a hint they are asking for too much.


You are a fighter level 5, then you get the wish and you get fast healing x.
The DM thinks this is a +2 LA so he gives you enough XP to go to level 7, but you are still level 5. To get to level 6 you need enough XP to go to level 8.

Someday the rest of the party will be +2 levels ahead from you, but you will have your fast healing. If you start with extra XP this day takes a bit longer to come. If not it comes in 2 levels :p

Here is the problem with this reasoning. Let me just take your words and make one substitution (and conforming changes) and I think you'll agree:

"You are a fighter level 5, then you get the wish and you get [+2 levels].
The DM thinks this is a +2 LA [obviously] so he gives you enough XP to go to level 7. To get to [the next level] you need enough XP to go to level 8.

Someday the rest of the party will [have an equivalent ECL]. If you start with extra XP this day takes a bit longer to come. If not it comes in 2 levels. "

So. wishing for things that are equivalent to LA (such as actual levels) with the only "penalty" being XP is highly abusable. You instantly become X levels (or ECLs) more powerful than the rest of the party, and the penalty is "one day they will catch up"? No way.
 

The problem with forcing an ECL bump is that if he is playing a class with Wish or you give him the ability to get a Wish then he gets a wish granted and later you want to penalize him for using available resources that you allowed him to have in the first place? I don't really see the fairness in this. Wish is a spell that has frequent problems, if you let your players use it in anyway you have to talk with them about every single downside before hand or else deal with your mistake.

Besides fast healing 5 is no problem at almost any level everything of CR will be able to out damage that. Regeneration is a bit of a problem because of the whole Non-lethal damage thing, but that isn't a big deal when the intelligent enemies realize that fire kills him just the same.

TL;DR Fast healing and Regeneration aren't a big problem, wish can be used for so many worse things.
 

Give him the fast healing... But make it so bits of his body will fast heal ANYONE. Including anyone that takes a bite out of him... For an hour.

Suddenly its a boon to any animal that attacks and lord help him if word gets around...
 

You are a fighter level 5, then you get the wish and you get fast healing x.
The DM thinks this is a +2 LA so he gives you enough XP to go to level 7, but you are still level 5. To get to level 6 you need enough XP to go to level 8.

Someday the rest of the party will be +2 levels ahead from you, but you will have your fast healing. If you start with extra XP this day takes a bit longer to come. If not it comes in 2 levels :p

The only problem is that before someday comes, the rest of the party is without fast healing - which means that your ECL is +2 higher than theirs. However that will happen no matter what, if you get fast healing x.

One solution would be to delete some levels (and the XP too) get the fast healing and have equal ECL with the rest of the party. This benefits you because at higher levels you wont be 2 levels behind (if the LA is +2). Also saves the DM from trying to make balanced encounters.

Or the DM can give all of you something to raise your ECLs.
Okay, let's look at it another way: You get a Wish and you use it to get a neat magic weapon. The rest of the party will some day have weapons of equal ability, as the party advances, but until then he has this big advantage.

So, do you deny him the weapon? Something that is specifically within the power of the spell?

Option 2: He Wishes for some neat ability that gives him an advantage over everyone else, but you don't apply an ECL adjustment. Now he has an advantage over everyone else, and he stay in that advantageous position forever.

To use an example tossed around: Your 5th level fighter gets Regen, which I would call a +2 ECL but we're calling a wash. Yeah intelligent foes can figure out at some point that their weapons aren't really hurting him, and maybe they have enough fire and acid to finish him off. (Although how they guess that without Knowledge Dungeoneering to give a clue is anybody's guess.) Unintelligent foes really stand no chance unless they just happen to have fire or acid as natural attacks.

Option 3: Refuse to let him Wish for anything that gives him a long term advantage.

This seems to be where everyone is heading, but if that's the final decision, why give him a Wish in the first place? Just give him the treasure or spell effect you're willing to allow.

Giving him the power (whatever power he's asking for) may or may not unbalance your game. That's your call. But if you give it to him, don't pretend that you didn't.

The EXP rules go beyond that chart across from the picture of the pretty lady in blue. Keep reading. Exp adjustments are recommended in the sections that follow, based on how much of a challenge the foes really were. If they were given superior tactics, in a situation that particularly favored them, or equipped particularly well, you're supposed to adjust the EXP accordingly. If the party is over-geared, or the situation gives them a particular advantage, you're supposed to trim the Exp award.

If you hand out Exp on an individual basis, the guy who couldn't actually be hurt or killed by the monsters because he had Regen and they didn't have fire or acid should probably take an Exp hit. Why? Because the situation gives him a particular advantage not normally accounted for in the encounter planner.

It may look like an unfair penalty, but it isn't. It's just acknowledging the reality of the game world: Situations are less challenging when you have some inherent advantages, and EXP is supposed to be based on the challenges you face.

Now you can adjudicate this adjustment encounter by encounter, and face the inevitable argument and hard feelings again and again, or you can assign an ECL adjustment one time and be done with it.

You might decide to call it something else, perhaps a "Challenge Adjustment" that doesn't count as actual levels and doesn't require that you add EXP to pay for it, but he's still going to fall behind the advancement curve over time. His new ability lets him coast through some encounters, and when you coast, the others catch up.

It's just that, in this case, they're "catching up" to a head start that isn't really reflected in his actual level, and it feels weird.

I know it's a fantasy game, but pretending that some over-the-top ability isn't going to affect the CR of the individual isn't the kind of fantasy they were talking about.
 

There are plenty of things you can wish for that are outside the normal rules / outside what is normally available in a particular DM's game, that do not change your ECL.

In the above example, wishing for a "neat magic weapon" does not provide a long term advantage over the party, assuming the DM does not allow the weapon to be egregiously level inappropriate. Presumably, if the party got a Wish as a level-appropriate reward, then it is just one of numerous level appropriate rewards they are receiving and other members of the party have, or will soon get, equivalent items (assuming a fair distribution of party wealth). Certainly, the Wish would allow for a more customized item, particularly in a campaign with low access to magic shops, but that would not change ECL.

Why give him a Wish in the first place? For the very reason of customization. The GM doesn't generally keep a wishlist for everyone and "drop" the items (et al) on each of the wishlists. Some characters are always happier with their items / abilities / etc. than others, and this switches over the life of a campaign as one person's favorite sword becomes obsolete and another person gets the staff they always wanted. A Wish allows you to get something (item, ability, event) that you want right now. Getting a level-appropriate "this is exaclty what I wanted" moment is very satisfying, but not ECL-changing.
 

I think you guys are overdoing the penalty for fast healing/regeneration just a bit. You can get always-on regeneration 5 with five feats (Troll-Blooded + 4 × Rapid Regeneration) and fast healing 4 or 5 during combat with three feats (Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, and either 1 other [Combat Form] feat for 4 or Fast Healing (which shouldn't be an epic feat at all) for 5)--or a situational fast healing 5 for a single feat (Scion of Tem-Et-Nu). All this talk of costing entire levels for this ability, or otherwise screwing the character out of what isn't a completely game-breaking ability, is really a bit much.

If someone wished for fast healing 5, a fair response would be to give them the three necessary [Combat Form] feats and give them 3 flaws to balance it out. Likewise, regeneration 5 would be worth 5 flaws to balance it out. If they'd taken flaws to begin with (2 at 1st level, 1 every 5th after that) they could have picked up the ability already without a wish, no level adjustment required.
 

I think you guys are overdoing the penalty for fast healing/regeneration just a bit. You can get always-on regeneration 5 with five feats (Troll-Blooded + 4 × Rapid Regeneration) and fast healing 4 or 5 during combat with three feats (Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, and either 1 other [Combat Form] feat for 4 or Fast Healing (which shouldn't be an epic feat at all) for 5)--or a situational fast healing 5 for a single feat (Scion of Tem-Et-Nu). All this talk of costing entire levels for this ability, or otherwise screwing the character out of what isn't a completely game-breaking ability, is really a bit much.

If someone wished for fast healing 5, a fair response would be to give them the three necessary [Combat Form] feats and give them 3 flaws to balance it out. Likewise, regeneration 5 would be worth 5 flaws to balance it out. If they'd taken flaws to begin with (2 at 1st level, 1 every 5th after that) they could have picked up the ability already without a wish, no level adjustment required.


Now these are constructive suggestions!
 

There are plenty of things you can wish for that are outside the normal rules / outside what is normally available in a particular DM's game, that do not change your ECL.

In the above example, wishing for a "neat magic weapon" does not provide a long term advantage over the party, assuming the DM does not allow the weapon to be egregiously level inappropriate. Presumably, if the party got a Wish as a level-appropriate reward, then it is just one of numerous level appropriate rewards they are receiving and other members of the party have, or will soon get, equivalent items (assuming a fair distribution of party wealth). Certainly, the Wish would allow for a more customized item, particularly in a campaign with low access to magic shops, but that would not change ECL.

Why give him a Wish in the first place? For the very reason of customization. The GM doesn't generally keep a wishlist for everyone and "drop" the items (et al) on each of the wishlists. Some characters are always happier with their items / abilities / etc. than others, and this switches over the life of a campaign as one person's favorite sword becomes obsolete and another person gets the staff they always wanted. A Wish allows you to get something (item, ability, event) that you want right now. Getting a level-appropriate "this is exaclty what I wanted" moment is very satisfying, but not ECL-changing.
But what we're talking about is an ability that is supposed to be "level inappropriate". Like giving a +5 Vorpal sword to a 5th level character, it's way over the top. (Wealth guideline for a 5th level character is waaaay below the 162,315 gp value of that blade.)

As was pointed out, Regen 5 can be gotten for 5 feats. Normally a Wish can grant you a single feat. Trying for 5 is pretty clearly "inappropriate" for a level where a single Wish was made available. It's over the top, by a factor of 5.

Now it's been suggested that you give them a series of Flaws to pare them back to an appropriate power level, instead of just giving them the power and acknowledging that it's there with some form of CR adjustment. That works. My game doesn't use Flaws, so i didn't think of that, but it's a good solution as well.

My preferred solution, by the way, is to just say "No" to such a request. If they insisted I'd warn them of the price, because it is over the top. Then, if they agreed, let them have it.
 


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