Wishing for Feats

[Corwin]

i often talk about them as "Circles of Power" - like this sword has the 3rd circle of power or a spell from the 9th circle of power.

Or even just talk about it IC as degrees of power above the simplest of enhancements (i.e., multiples of +1, basically).

So a +3 sword "holds powerful magic, thrice fold that of a basic magical infusion"... or something like that. You get the idea.

There are plently of ways to get across an accurate depiction of an obect or spell's power level and still remain IC.

In fact, I think it's kinda silly to think people living in a magical world wouldn't have terms and descriptions to account for the varying levels of power that exist.

If weapons and armor are capable of containing 5 degrees of increasing strength, and spells range up to 9 levels of power, it seems counterintuitive to think there isn't a system for ranking them.

 

[maddman75]

Here's my perspective on wishes in general. I don't use ELH (too over the top for my taste), so IMC a wish is the most powerful magic a mortal can hope to weild. The force of the magic will do what it can to make the character's desires come true. The 'safe' wishes in the PHB are examples of what is within this range of power. Anything beyond that may have unintended consequences. IOW - wish for too much and you might get screwed.

For instance, I once had characters wish that 'Last month, I'd been returned to life by True Resurrection rather than Raise Dead.' Seeing as how this is one of the fundamental balances of the game (and I did warn them) it was beyond the power of the wish. But I do allow wishes to rearrange the world in order to make the wisher's desire come true.

So time unravelled, and a high level cleric of Nerull that had been plotting evil schemes in the distant mountains was transported to just outside town. And the characters remember agreeing, via speak with dead' to provide a service under magical compulsion in exchange for a True Res. Time wrapped back up, and the characters were a level higher. But now they had an evil high level cleric in their midst and a quest they HAD to perform for him!

If your case, I'd probably allow it. A feat is not an unreasonable thing to wish for, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisite ability scores. I'd be more cautious if it were at the top of a feat chain or something. If you thought this was unreasonable, the wish would find a way to make it true. Unravel time, the character takes a sabbatical of intense conditioning of his reflexes, gaining a +3 bonus. Unfortunatly, he missed part of the groups adventures, so dock him a level. Take the last feat he chose, and change it to dodge.

Like I said, I wouldn't stick it to him like that for what he's asking. I always warn my players if they are pushing it too far. SOmetimes (such as with the Res) they decide its worth the risk.

 

[Stalker0]

I would say the wish would do it, but would have negative sideeffects.

For me anything that's outside the guidelines of the wish spell are obtainable, but only with a price, and I'm not talking xp.

Basically, allow him to increase his dex by the amount needed, but that will alter him in some other ways as well.

But as soon as you start allowing wishing to cut out prereqs, you'll start getting into sticky situations with prcs and the like.

 

[Drawmack]

As far as I am concerned I will grant anything the character wishes for. Here are my rules.

1) Your wish must be in character.
2) You must submit your wish to me in writting
3) I will provide you with the results, in writting, the following week.
4) You cannot have an ability score above 100% = 20

There is a saying in my group about wishes and miracles, ''if you get gready you will get screwed.'' I play with words for fun, it is a hobby of mine. I am forever turning meanings around on people. If you hand me a paragraph of complex wording that gives you four ability boosts and three feats I can garentee you that it is not air tight. Here are a couple of good examples.

Good wishes
wish I wish to be 20% more intellegent then I am now.
Result x/100 * 20 = Ability Increase. Where x = characters current ability. For example a bard with 10 cha wishes for a 20% ability increase they get 10/100 * 20 = .1 * 20 = 2 ability points making their new con 12.

wish I wish the to dodge things 20% faster then I do now. Without changing my physical shape or size.
Result x/100 * 20 = Reflex save increase where x = current base reflex save. For example someone with a 5 BRS gets 5/100 = .05 * 20 = 1 new BRS is 6.

wish I wish to increase my initial reation to battle situations. Without changing my physical shape or size.
Result You just got imporved initiative.

Bad wishes
wish I wish that I could not die.
result you will not die but the aging process is not halted.

wish I wish that I could not die and the aging process was halted today.
result You are a vampire, NPC give me your character sheet.

Chaining results also becomes very difficult as you must make sure that your chain does not have a weak link.

 

[bret]

I very much disagree. However, speaking of a "faint, moderate, or strongly enchanted item" (per detect magic, PH p. 193) would be in-character.

So if it were a modern game, it would be out of character to say I've got a Pentium III with blah, blah and blah.

They exact words may not be +1 weapon vs.+2 weapon. It might be something like Erkley's Masterfull Blow vs. Schulb's Power Weapon. The results are anyone familiar with the process knows which is better and which could bypass creatures that need a more powerful enchantment. Why create new terms for something you've already got valid terms for? Are you just trying to make sure people outside your group don't understand?

Tell me how the wizard would describe to another wizard the difference between working on a +1 weapon versus a +2 weapon. After I've got that, I can try to simplify it for the non-technical.


[ Edit: Spelling and added rhetorical question about adding to vocabulary. ]

 

[Fenlock]

one thing i have allways taken for granted is, that whatever language the character is speaking, it would have evolved construct to express statements like '+1 enchantment'.

Language does natural adapt finely tuned expressions to difference between nuances. whether it is eskimos discussing snow or indians chatting about caste the language will have the constructs because it is necessary. Or look at the english language which has a lot of words to describe goblins and fey creatures.

In most campaings magic will have been around for millenia so the language will have evolved to express and explain magic. And any mage guild _will_ evolve a sub set of the language to express the difference between +1 or +2 or a luck bonus instead of a morale bonus.

With that in mind i allow the playes to ask 'Yo shopkeep! You got any +1 sword laying around?'. Because it would make sence in the characters languag if not in english. Or danish as mine case is. In a very roleplaying strict campaign some languages and alphabets might be better suited than other (elvish versus goblin).

Another issue is the experience/knowledge of the person or item that grants the wish. Most players need som time to adapt to a new spell (remember the very first time your character cast 'Fireball'). IMHO the same goes for casting wishes. 19 in intelligence withstanding, a wizard will not be as skilled at granting wishes as a Genie. This offcourse is a house rule but it means that if the character wishes for something not stated in the spell description. Then she has a better chance with a deity than with a pc wizard.

/Fenlock

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Fenlock,

There is no real consensus on this issue.

I am uncomfortable with wishing for feats because I see them as character defining traits -- more so than a stat point or two, or even a class level. Allowing a straightforward procedure to gain extra feats is really messing with the fundamental feel of the game, IMO.

That said, there are many cases where it is probably just fine.

In the specific case you mention, I wouldn't give him the feat, but letting ignore the prereq to get it himslef seems reasonable to me. Giving a feat outright he does not come close to qualifying for seems like a bit much IMHO.

You can also use magic items as a loophole if you want to cut the player a little slack. Some items do gives feats.

 

[Fenlock]

Ridley's Cohort,

To be true i wasn't looking for a ruling, but more for arguments.

As the case is, im taking 7 character through RtToEE. And allowing their only cleric to become a dwarven defender... well, you get the point

And allowing the player to get the feat he needs (dodge and he has 10 dex) is really no big thing for me. but there is some other players that will take it as a precedens, and - oh boy - those i am nervous about.

Now in the module there is a slight chance that they might get a few wishes. but i have know these guys for 10+ years and they can drive trucks through slight chances.

Anyhow i was looking for arguments, and those i have found in the former thread (once again i give praise to the darkness). And yes i wouldnt give feats for straight wishes either (for the same reasons you give) but this campaign ends with the conclusion of the module and i doubt any will be able to cast it by themself.

/Fenlock