D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

[Ahnehnois]

You mean the sort of effort that would be put in by a wise specialist and student of nature fighting for their life and possibly the fate of the world?

The character doesn't choose to be pitifully weak and clumsy (i.e. badly min/maxed ability scores) so he can shapeshift out of his body to ignore those vulnerabilities. Nor does the character necessarily have the opportunity to know what the best wild shape forms in all the seven kingdoms are.

Which is how Gygax did it

Not Mearls, Rouse, & co., unfortunately.

If you're wondering whether I like percentage chances to learn spells or be resurrected by one rather than automaticity on both counts, the answer is yes.

 

[billd91]

Let me just clarify the above.

I've devoted every advancement decision into making my specialist spellcaster into a better spellcaster. An int bonus affects just about all aspects of being a caster.

He spent 8000 GP on his wondrous item - he crafted it. And Craft Wondrous Item is a superb investment. It's only 16,000 if he had to buy it over the counter.

So. I've spent my stat boosts on my most important stat. An obvious choice. I've spent one feat on something that's good for the whole party (Craft Wondrous Item) and a total of one feat out of three to make me more skilled with my most-used combat school. I've spent 8000 GP to make myself a better caster. Or as much as the fighter would spend on a +2 sword.

As far as the magic item goes, it may cost 8000 gp to craft it, but that 8000 probably isn't originally all in the form of cash. A substantial part of it is most likely other items sold for half price, meaning it still takes up most of the 16,000 out of 27,000 gp in your expected wealth by level. That's a substantial investment. Meanwhile, that fighter's +2 sword might have been one recovered in treasure by now (or bought) but either way its value is 8000, not 16,000. So it's likely a smaller investment relative to his 27,000 gp expected wealth than the wizard's headband of intellect +4.

Other players might have taken one of those stat bumps to increase an odd value in Con to gain more hit points, or improve his AC by increasing an odd Dexterity. Another player entirely might have devoted some of it to ameliorate an overly dumped Strength stat when he discovered how little he could actually carry without being penalized.

But you've chosen to focus on improving your spell DCs to the exclusion of broader development. I'm not saying that's irrational at all. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's directed at pushing the spell DC envelope as much as you can given your initial position and can cause problems that will not appear if you don't do it. As a DM, I would tell you to moderate unless everyone were playing the same optimization game just as I would if you were sticking lots of high powered or No Normal Defense attacks into a cheap and legal multi-power in Champions.

 

[Neonchameleon]

As far as the magic item goes, it may cost 8000 gp to craft it, but that 8000 probably isn't originally all in the form of cash. A substantial part of it is most likely other items sold for half price, meaning it still takes up most of the 16,000 out of 27,000 gp in your expected wealth by level.

This doesn't follow at all. A significant amount of magic items are going to be what in MMO terms are referred to as "Vendor Trash". Things like the fighter's old +1 sword that we replaced when he found a +2 (unless he had it enchanted because he had 6000 GP lying around in which case the whole argument goes away). Or an enemy's +1 sword we took from a corpse and no one wanted. This is especially true if we levelled up rather than started at level 8.

So there will almost certainly be enough cash floating around - and being a wizard you don't get first dibs on the items. The only armour you want is a Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt - anything else can go to someone else or to the vendor trash pile. You don't want a weapon (other than a crossbow). The wizard isn't even first in line for most of the items he can use other than spellbooks, scrolls, pearls of power, and int boosters - +resistance items and even +constitution items go to the people most likely to be targetted first. And crafters can make the most use out of raw gold, so they on need alone get most of the vendor trash.

Your entire argument here exists in isolation. It exists in isolation of the normal practice of levelling up, and it exists in isolation of the party working together.

That's a substantial investment. Meanwhile, that fighter's +2 sword might have been one recovered in treasure by now (or bought) but either way its value is 8000, not 16,000. So it's likely a smaller investment relative to his 27,000 gp expected wealth than the wizard's headband of intellect +4.

Oh, it's a bit smaller. But the fighter actively needs more kit as well. The wizard's armour comes to 7500GP total (+1 Mithral Twilght Chain Shirt, +1 Mithral Small Shield) if he's not just going with Mage Armour.

Other players might have taken one of those stat bumps to increase an odd value in Con to gain more hit points, or improve his AC by increasing an odd Dexterity.

Con, possibly. AC - I don't think so. If the wizard is taking lots of attacks something badly wrong and a point of AC won't help that much. If the wizard isn't taking lots of attacks, who cares?

Another player entirely might have devoted some of it to ameliorate an overly dumped Strength stat when he discovered how little he could actually carry without being penalized.

A wizard? Alternatively they just aren't wearing armour. By level 8, party carrying capacity shouldn't be much of an issue - after all a small Bag of Holding costs 2500GP to buy, or you can get a Handy Haversack for 2000GP. (Or just make one of the above at level 9).

But you've chosen to focus on improving your spell DCs to the exclusion of broader development.

No. I've chosen to focus on my spellcasting and my skills. Because I'm a wizard. Improving Int improves my skill list - the knowledges. It improves the number of skills I get. It improves the number of spells I get. It literally improves almost everything I do to contribute to the party.

I have spent that improves my spell DCs and doesn't improve everything else I might want to do as a wizard. No other stat improves me as a wizard. No other stat improves my spellcraft. No other stat improves my knowledge skills. One other stat improves my ability to cast spells - and that only very very marginally (con for Concentration).

I'm not saying that's irrational at all. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's directed at pushing the spell DC envelope as much as you can given your initial position and can cause problems that will not appear if you don't do it.

No. It's directed at making me a better wizard. I have spent one feat specifically on my spell DC. I am not "pushing the envelope as far as I can". If I'd been doing that I'd have had Greater Spell Focus and an Int 20. I suppose problems can arise if I decide to play a spellcaster who wants to learn to cast spells better.

Int is useful to literally everything a wizard does. The only possible reason to not want to raise your Int before anything else is if your Con is an odd number.

As a DM, I would tell you to moderate unless everyone were playing the same optimization game just as I would if you were sticking lots of high powered or No Normal Defense attacks into a cheap and legal multi-power in Champions.

As a player I am moderating. I haven't twinked out my Save DCs. I've directed one portion of my character's development to get better at what he practices. I'm more moderate than the fighter with the barbarian with a +2 sword, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Power Attack, Cleave, and who's put his stat boosts into strength and/or con. He's spent more gold than me on something far less flexible. He's spent more feats than me on just the ability to Hit Stuff Hard.

 

[billd91]

This doesn't follow at all. A significant amount of magic items are going to be what in MMO terms are referred to as "Vendor Trash". Things like the fighter's old +1 sword that we replaced when he found a +2 (unless he had it enchanted because he had 6000 GP lying around in which case the whole argument goes away). Or an enemy's +1 sword we took from a corpse and no one wanted. This is especially true if we levelled up rather than started at level 8.

<snip>
And crafters can make the most use out of raw gold, so they on need alone get most of the vendor trash.

Your entire argument here exists in isolation. It exists in isolation of the normal practice of levelling up, and it exists in isolation of the party working together.

Except for one thing. That "vendor trash" of +1 swords and minor magic... is sold for half price. That's what I'm getting at with items being sold to generate that 8000 gp the wizard uses to make the headband of intellect +4. That's why the item creation feat does more to preserve the value of magic items for the party rather than double it. That 8000 gp, presuming a lot of it comes from the sales of "vendor trash" came from closer to 16,000 gp of value out of his 27,000 gp. Like I said, a substantial investment, particularly if you leveled the character up and cobbled the money together out of recovered loot rather than created the character at 8th level to begin with.

No. It's directed at making me a better wizard. I have spent one feat specifically on my spell DC. I am not "pushing the envelope as far as I can". If I'd been doing that I'd have had Greater Spell Focus and an Int 20. I suppose problems can arise if I decide to play a spellcaster who wants to learn to cast spells better.

Int is useful to literally everything a wizard does. The only possible reason to not want to raise your Int before anything else is if your Con is an odd number.

As a player I am moderating. I haven't twinked out my Save DCs. I've directed one portion of my character's development to get better at what he practices. I'm more moderate than the fighter with the barbarian with a +2 sword, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Power Attack, Cleave, and who's put his stat boosts into strength and/or con. He's spent more gold than me on something far less flexible. He's spent more feats than me on just the ability to Hit Stuff Hard.

Of course you're pushing the envelope. +4 DC in 5 levels. Virtually every choice that could have been made to improve your Intelligence was made. And the game does reward it, so, as I said, it's not an irrational strategy. It is, however, neither necessary nor moderate given the focus on driving it up in such a short duration. The only moderating influence has been the initially moderate position. Every choice you've highlighted, for about a quarter of the character's expected career, serves to maximize the spell DCs.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Except for one thing. That "vendor trash" of +1 swords and minor magic... is sold for half price.

And the wealth by level takes this into account. If it didn't then you'd start off by loading every PC of high level down with junk. I don't have the 3.X wealth by level rules to hand, but Pathfinder explicitely assumes "that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased." Which means that you are simply double-counting here. (The 3.X assumptions aren't part of the SRD so I can't link them). Plenty of wealth is gold, and vendor trash being sold for half price is already part of the assumption of wealth by level. I don't need to halve it again - it's already been halved as part of the Wealth By Level.

Of course you're pushing the envelope. +4 DC in 5 levels. Virtually every choice that could have been made to improve your Intelligence was made.

I'm squarely in the envelope. For a wizard to raise a stat other than Int, or perhaps Con is a weird choice - probably more weird than the Barbarian choosing to raise his Int. The game doesn't give you many choices to raise Int because it expects you to take all of them. Which is one good way to center the envelope. You, for whatever reason, expect me to deliberately take a weird strategy that drops out of the back of the envelope.

As for items, what do you expect me to take? From what I can tell, the only items that make you a better wizard in the SRD are Int Boosters, the Blessed Book, the Ring of Wizardry, Pearls of Power, and Scrolls. Possibly wands. Oh, and the Metamagic Rods that should be banned.

And of those the Blessed Book is probably not worth buying at this level. It will be later. And you can afford it if you need to - you have the feat to make it - or you can just buy it off the shelf. The Ring of Wizardry 1 costs more than the +4 Headband of Intellect - and you can't craft it. So that means the items that make you a better wizard are the Headband of Intellect (which you can craft) and the Pearls of Power (which you can't). And scrolls. Mustn't forget the lovely cheap scrolls.

So it's boiling down to "Should I craft literally the only item I can craft that makes me a better wizard and isn't limited use"?

If there were other options out there you might have a point with your "moderating". But there aren't ones that come close.

And the game does reward it, so, as I said, it's not an irrational strategy.

The game expects it. Literally the only thing the game might not expect is the +4 headband of intellect.

It is, however, neither necessary nor moderate given the focus on driving it up in such a short duration.

What focus? I've spent fewer feats driving up my save DCs than the Barbarian's spent on getting better at hitting people. I've spent the same stat points doing what I do best that the Barbarian has. I've spent less money than the Barbarian has. And I've got a lot more versatility out of it. What do you expect me to get? Not to raise the single stat I've been using most and on which everything I do depends?

The only moderating influence has been the initially moderate position. Every choice you've highlighted, for about a quarter of the character's expected career, serves to maximize the spell DCs.

No. The moderating influence has been that I am following the game's expectations. I'm putting points into Int when it expects me to and not munchkining to get more. The game expects wizards to realise that the best thing they can do under any circumstance is to raise their Int so gives limited opportunities for this. And I'm taking them not making them. You seem to think, for whatever reason, that when the game gives me an offer of something good I must turn it down occasionally. Next you'll be telling fighters "You shouldn't be taking weapon specialisation and a magic weapon of the same type. You aren't moderating. You're only following the feat and advancement path laid out by the game, not doing something else."

The wizard I've laid out is a whole lot more moderate than the Greater Weapon Spec fighter at Level 8 - and the Cleaving Barbarian. Are you really going to tell them to moderate? Or does this have absolutely nothing to do with moderation in character generation, and instead have everything to do with the fact that the Wizard is very overpowered?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I hear what you're saying. But I see it as a field, where moving away from simulationism doesn't necessarily bring you closer to gamism, and vice versa. It's easy to imagine some terrible rules that don't do anything for either priority, right?

Sure, there are simply bad games that don't do anything /well/.

I basically look at the contentious features of 4e and see an abandoning of simulationism for no real purpose. E.g. the homogenization of classes with the AEDU framework

Well, class balance, is a very real and vital purpose - if you're going to have classes at all, each class needs to be a viable choice. The 'homogenization' effect of a common structure has been really, /really/ over-blown. It's no more homogenizing than having all skills work off a d20 vs DC mechanic. It's just good game design delivering a better-balance, cleaner, clearer, easier-to-learn, easier-to-run system.

Most of the controversial stuff in 4e were things done to fix long-standing balance issues. Taking away excessive 'rewards for system master,' and things like that. They made the game much better in a technical sense, but also made it much less familiar. But, they didn't really make it that much less a simulation, though, at the same time, they shifted from modeling some imagined independent reality (an aspect of "simulationist") to modeling a genre (a sort of cinematic-action heroic fantasy, for the most part) or story, something a GNS 'narrativist' might like. Still it didn't go very far in that direction compared to other games, only compared to 3e. :shrug:

-- I find that offensive to both my simulationist sense AND my gamist sense. I've never needed or wanted that level of class balance from a game point of view, so for me it's simultaneously more gamey and less fun, because they nerfed some of the awesome out of the spells, and there's just less variety in that portion of the game in general.

The purpose of game balance is to let players with different desires and expectations play the same game without ruining it for eachother (too often, or too easily, anyway). I can see how you wouldn't need that if your fellow players all had the same expectations & desires and 3.5 meshed with those. As to not /wanting/ balance, why would you want to approach a cooperative game like an RPG with, at best, indifference to the play experience of others?

 

[Balesir]

It can be, but it really requires a conscious effort to abuse it.

I would say, rather, that - knowing that it can be very powerful - it requires us to assume a conscious effort by however many Druids there are in the game-world not to "abuse" (i.e. fully use) it. That assumption makes my head swim with confusion concerning how any world can be that way.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I would say, rather, that - knowing that it can be very powerful - it requires us to assume a conscious effort by however many Druids there are in the game-world not to "abuse" (i.e. fully use) it. That assumption makes my head swim with confusion concerning how any world can be that way.

Of the available forms, how many are really powerful? Most of the typical animals in the MM aren't going to provide a significant power boost, particularly when you consider limitations on items you can use. The main abuse of wild shape is transforming into a flying form and natural spelling away from above (which again, is one rather bad feat); it's not like your druidic bears/wolves/crocodiles are going to outfight a fighter in most cases. Nor are there a ton of great druid offensive spells. There are a number of utility uses for wild shape, but nothing that an unintelligent nonmagical animal can do is likely to break the game.

Moreover, like all use-limited abilities, there's a pretty strong tendency for people to save them in case of emergencies. If you've only got one or two wild shapes or the like a day, in practice that's more like zero on most days.

Can it be abused? Sure. Polymorph-type effects don't stand up well to powergamers or thought experiments, but you can give a character more broken abilities than that without unbalancing the world.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The character doesn't choose to be pitifully weak and clumsy (i.e. badly min/maxed ability scores) so he can shapeshift out of his body to ignore those vulnerabilities.

Well, no, the player chooses to make the character incredibly wise and so forth so he'll make an effective Druid, and sacrifices stats the Druid doesn't need due to the way Wildshape works, mechanically. The /character/ probably, being very wise, realized Druid would be a good career choice given his natural gifts. But, yeah, it's a "dissociative mechanic."

 

[Hussar]

But none of those options do break the game unless you're also pushing at the margins. Color spray isn't terribly out of control. It's powerful but it's tolerable. Same with web and glitterdust. With a caster stat value of 16, they have saves of 14 or 15 and that's within most targets' abilities to reach (even if they don't most of the time). Push at the margins with a wizard who's bumped to Int 26+ and that's when things are getting ridiculous.

But, that's not the problem though. It's not that Color Spray is broken. It's that it's significantly more effective than other options. Same with web or glitterdust. Both of which are effectively save or die - webbed targets that fail their save are stuck. Fill them full of arrows and you're done. A blinded target is pretty much a victim - 50% miss chance and a -4 on all attacks? Yeah, it's toast.

Again, I'm not talking about ridiculous builds. I'm talking about that 16 Int wizard.

/edit

Except for one thing. That "vendor trash" of +1 swords and minor magic... is sold for half price. That's what I'm getting at with items being sold to generate that 8000 gp the wizard uses to make the headband of intellect +4. That's why the item creation feat does more to preserve the value of magic items for the party rather than double it. That 8000 gp, presuming a lot of it comes from the sales of "vendor trash" came from closer to 16,000 gp of value out of his 27,000 gp.

Umm, no? That's not how it works. The wizard at that level has 27000 gp worth of equipment. Period. Full stop. That something was sold for half value doesn't change that. You simply sell more stuff that you didn't need. He still has that 27000 gp to play with. Which means if he spends 8000 crafting something, it doesn't matter where the 27k came from. He's out 8k of 27k. Not 16. Because, after he crafts, he's still got 19k worth to play with. Otherwise, you're saying that PC's should all have half expected weath, because they can never sell anything. It doesn't work that way.

But, all this is beside the point. Heck, buy a +2 headband of intellect if it makes you happier. Same effect. So he loses +1 off his DC? Who cares? He's bloody near as effective without that headband at all.

Why are we even discussing this? I cannot believe that after this long people STILL refuse to accept that some of us have a problem with casters being over powered in our games. Instead of trying to convince us that this problem never exists, how about actually offering useful advice beyond something nebulous like "smart play"? Hey, you never have this problem. That's fantastic. What's your secret.

I mean, I posted a little bit ago a perfect storm of where casters are going to dominate - no time limits, lots of down time, etc. And I STILL got told that no problem exists.

Look, it comes down to this:

Just because you are not having this problem does not mean no one else is. Try actually accepting that we are having this issue and would like to see this issue rectified. If you have some magic bullet that we can use to fix the problem in our games, please stop keeping it a secret. And please stop trying to shift the blame onto the players. It's not the players. Our players are probably no different from your players. It's just that our players apparently have bought into the idea of system competence (I refuse to call choosing color spray over burning hands system master) to a greater degree than yours. Good grief, Bill91, you're saying that a wizard choosing an Int boost item is abusing the system. Seriously? I would hope that you would hold the same disdain for Guantlets of Ogre Power and +1 swords. After all, that's every bit as system abusing as the wizard's choices.