D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I would say, rather, that - knowing that it can be very powerful - it requires us to assume a conscious effort by however many Druids there are in the game-world not to "abuse" (i.e. fully use) it. That assumption makes my head swim with confusion concerning how any world can be that way.

And how! All the abuse in my 3E games was because the player didn't know to avoid this seemingly innocuous, in character, choice. 3E is the poster child for a system that you have to master in order that a group of well-meaning, non niche-stepping friends can make sure they don't accidently get too powerful.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Why are we even discussing this? I cannot believe that after this long people STILL refuse to accept that some of us have a problem with casters being over powered in our games. Instead of trying to convince us that this problem never exists, how about actually offering useful advice beyond something nebulous like "smart play"? Hey, you never have this problem. That's fantastic. What's your secret.
While there really are ways to check caster power in 3.x even right through the low double-digit levels, "not having a problem" with something can also simply mean not minding the issue (not caring, not noticing, actively liking it, etc) even when it's present.

Old joke I heard on Dave Allen at Large many years ago:
[sblock]A man seeks the secret of happiness, he climbs a mountain to talk to a guru who knows the secret and asks him. The guru says "The secret to true happiness is never to argue, never to differ, always to be in agreement with all men." The man is aghast, and a sputters "That is NOT the secret of happiness!" The guru shrugs: "OK, it's not the secret..."[/sblock]
 
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pemerton

Legend
Int is useful to literally everything a wizard does. The only possible reason to not want to raise your Int before anything else is if your Con is an odd number.
For a wizard to raise a stat other than Int, or perhaps Con is a weird choice - probably more weird than the Barbarian choosing to raise his Int. The game doesn't give you many choices to raise Int because it expects you to take all of them.

<snip>

I am following the game's expectations. I'm putting points into Int when it expects me to and not munchkining to get more. The game expects wizards to realise that the best thing they can do under any circumstance is to raise their Int so gives limited opportunities for this. And I'm taking them not making them. You seem to think, for whatever reason, that when the game gives me an offer of something good I must turn it down occasionally. Next you'll be telling fighters "You shouldn't be taking weapon specialisation and a magic weapon of the same type. You aren't moderating. You're only following the feat and advancement path laid out by the game, not doing something else."
Agreed 100%. When the game gives you the choice to raise a stat on your PC, and everything that your PC does is pegged to INT, how can the typical choice be anything but raising INT?

Of course you're pushing the envelope. +4 DC in 5 levels. Virtually every choice that could have been made to improve your Intelligence was made.
Huh? That DC increased by 4 over 5 levels doesn't show that Neonchameleon was pushing the envelope. It shows that the rules are badly designed.

Suppose that saving throws worked like AD&D, for example, but everything else about 3E was held constant. Then exactly the same choice could be made - raising INT when permitted to, boosting it with an INT item, etc - for exactly the same reason: everything that a wizard does is pegged to INT. But the game wouldn't break, because saving throw DCs aren't pegged to a stat bonus. My higher INT gives me a few more languages I can learn, and a better range of known spells. But my spells themselves don't get any stronger.

For 3E to work as it is currently written - that is, with spell-casting stats granting "to hit" bonuses (via DC increase) in the same way as DEX and STR, then the game needs a concept of "Natural Fortitude Bonus", "Natural Reflex Bonus" and "Natural Will Bonus" to do the same defence-balancing work as is done by Natural Armour Bonuses.

In fact, the need is actually greater: because generally hitting a creature's AC only depletes its hit points, and it has plenty more where they came from! Whereas when a creature fails a saving throw (which is the functional equivalent of a caster hitting its Fort, Ref or Will) then often its hit points are simply bypassed. Furthermore, spells grant effective bonuses to hit (ie the level component of a DC) quicker than fighters and thieves get bonuses from their weapons (at 3rd level, the fighter probably has +1 from a magic weapon, whereas the caster has a +2 from a 2nd level spell; at 20th level the fighter probably has +5 or maybe +6 from a magic weapon, whereas the caster has +9 from a 9th level spell).

4e's changes to the basic mechanics in these respects aren't arbitrary - they're fundamental to establishing mathematical balance in the game, given that spellcasters are going to be granted "to hit" bonuses from their stats.

And it's interesting to see how D&Dnext is handling this: spells are just stat vs stat, with wizards and warlocks getting a +1 or +2 bonus from level; weapons and magical attacks are stat vs stat (or AC in place of DEX for heavy armour), with a modest bonus to DEX from armour and a modest bonus to hit from class. To me, it looks very close to 4e except that the level-scaling is mostly stripped out, and for some spells the die-rolling convention reverts to the pre-4e tradition of the defender rather than the attacker rolling the die.

I think it's noteworthy that D&Dnext is not reverting to the AD&D approach of caster stats not mattering to magical attacks. But nor is it going with an unmodified 3E approach; rather, it is going with the 4e solution to the 3E approach.

The only respect in which D&Dnext sticks to the 3E approach without adopting a 4e modification is in its choice of stats for defences against spellls: in the playtest rules to date, saves are mostly either on DEX or WIS, with a few CON ones as well. This is the 3E Fort/Ref/Will categorisation, although without the distinctive class bonuses to defences (and it has its origins in AD&D, with the DEX AC bonus also contributing to dodge-style saves, the WIS bonus contributing to willpower-style saves, and CON of 19+ granting a bonus to saves against poison). This means that a class feature for clerics and rogues (and some fighters) is their superior saving throws, although that is not immediately transparent in the class descriptions. Whereas 4e, with its two-stats per defence approach, tends to make defences against non-weapon attacks more even across classes (there are a few STR/CON, DEX/INT and CHA/WIS builds, but not that many and I don't think there is any class that mandates such a pairing).

like all use-limited abilities, there's a pretty strong tendency for people to save them in case of emergencies. If you've only got one or two wild shapes or the like a day, in practice that's more like zero on most days.
Are you talking here about NPCs? - in which case I'm not sure that matters too [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION]'s point, as the gameworld model will probably break down even if each druid turns into a useful animal only once a month.

But if you're talking about PCs, then you are putting forward a very different playstyle from the one I am used to. My players are from "the best defence is a good offence" school: you don't save powers for emergencies that may never come, but rather deploy them so that your PCs can reshape the world so that it will not offer up too many emergencies!

And for what it's worth, the capacity of shapechange to break the game is not confined to D&D - I've experienced the same thing in Rolemaster. And you don't need to trawl through books to find viable forms: birds make climbing and jumping mostly redundant; mice make stealth mostly redundant; bears make men-at-arms mostly redundant; and if you can change into non-animal forms, wyverns and drakes can make whole PCs mostly redundant!
 

pemerton

Legend
they shifted from modeling some imagined independent reality (an aspect of "simulationist") to modeling a genre (a sort of cinematic-action heroic fantasy, for the most part) or story, something a GNS 'narrativist' might like.
GNS narrativist aren't especially interested in genre emulation, though it can help with action resolution (especially if you don't have process simulationist mechanics to settle disputes about what exactly is happening in the fiction). Their goal is that decisions made by the participants during play produce a worthwhile and satisfying story, even though no one, during play, has the job of being responsible for this. (Rather, the players are responsible for building PCs which are rich in story potential, and then playing them; and the GM is responsible for framing scenes which will elucidate that story potential, and then keeping the pressure up on the players.)

I think 4e is the best version of D&D around for vanilla narrativism because it drops many traditional D&D concerns and mechanics that tend to reinforce a focus on simulation (esp the "independent reality" simulation you mention) at the expense of focusing on the stakes of any given conflict.

But I think it can also probably do "genre emulation" simulation quite nicely - via adventure paths and the like.

I tend to agree with the tendency to simulation.

<snip>

I'm not sure about the centrality of the GM wrt to this phenomenon. By which I mean, I'm not sure how much having a GM in the game leads to this propensity beyond being bred into the participants by D&D.
I was pointing to the GM not as a cause of simulationism, but as having an important role to play in "stopping the reinforcing of simulationist approaches to play" (assuming that a group is wanting to move away from simulationism towards narrativism). And I was basing this on a general conception of the infuence and power that a GM enjoys in traditional RPGs.

I'm not sure whether the presence or absence of a GM increases the tendency to simulation.

Narrativist games by the nature must either be extremely simplistic (and thus unprofitable) or take a dive toward either G or S...which is where the trouble starts.
We've discussed this before. I still don't think I follow. Why does rules proliferation push towards G or S? If the rules aren't simulationist in orientation, you can avoid S. Why must they push towards G, though? Because they create a framework that can be exploited, thereby allowing gamism to emerge as the "creeping doom"?
 

Of the available forms, how many are really powerful?

At level 8? All large predators with 6hd or more. In practice in the SRD that's lions and tigers and bears (oh, my!)

Most of the typical animals in the MM aren't going to provide a significant power boost,

All the large ones I can think of have strengths in the mid 20s. That's a pretty significant power boost!

it's not like your druidic bears/wolves/crocodiles are going to outfight a fighter in most cases.

They don't have to. But the large forms are going to challenge the fighter. Strength 29, large, and improved grab for a brown bear IIRC. Enough of a schtick to rival the fighter. And that's before your companion helps out. Again the companion is probably worth a fighter. So that's two half fighters you've got. Which means even without spells or skills you've got two fighter-rivals in the party to beat up the fighter (and mangle the action economy).

Nor are there a ton of great druid offensive spells.

There don't need to be a ton. There are enough. A couple is enough and 1/spell level is overkill, and there are more than a couple of Summon Natures' Ally spells on their own. Entangle is something wizards only wish they had. Call Lightning breaks trash. So you're already a pair of beatsticks that can challenge the fighter against single targets. And now you can shut down multiple targets outdoors in a way that makes wizards turn green with envy from level 1. And then outside combat the fighter is as usual reliant on his pathetic skill points and no class features. The druid gets more class features, more skill points, spells, and a useful primary stat.

Moreover, like all use-limited abilities, there's a pretty strong tendency for people to save them in case of emergencies.

At 8th level you can wildshape 3/day for 8 hours a time. That ... adds up to 24 hours.
 

slobo777

First Post
They don't have to. But the large forms are going to challenge the fighter. Strength 29, large, and improved grab for a brown bear IIRC. Enough of a schtick to rival the fighter. And that's before your companion helps out. Again the companion is probably worth a fighter. So that's two half fighters you've got. Which means even without spells or skills you've got two fighter-rivals in the party to beat up the fighter (and mangle the action economy).

Very approximately at around levels 5-9: in combination +4 Str, +2 Con, and either +2 Dex or +1 natural armour is easily worth a level of fighter on a simple maths level. The only thing missing is the feats - a creature special attack or quality can cover 2 to 4 fighter levels easily enough.

An 8th-level druid unenhanced is probably only the equal of a 3rd/4th level fighter in melee. But the bear stats really do make up the difference.
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
I cannot believe that after this long people STILL refuse to accept that some of us have a problem with casters being over powered in our games.
I don't see where anyone is denying that. I totally believe that there are a small minority of people who legitimately have that issue. I even believe that it's worth addressing on some level. What you seem to be denying is that most people don't have that problem, and that a comparable number (such as myself) find that the martial classes are typically favored by the players and do better in the game.

You also (as do many) seem to believe that whatever problem you have constitutes a blanket justification for making radical changes to basic game elements (as opposed to simply fixing a few poorly designed spells or giving fighters a better and more explicit maneuver system).
 

slobo777

First Post
I don't see where anyone is denying that. I totally believe that there are a small minority of people who legitimately have that issue. I even believe that it's worth addressing on some level. What you seem to be denying is that most people don't have that problem, and that a comparable number (such as myself) find that the martial classes are typically favored by the players and do better in the game.

When it comes to relative numbers having certain opinions of the games, we're in no-mans-land statistically.

I doubt there are real-world numbers anywhere for 5 min work-days, CoDzilla, or disliking fighter dailies.

This lack of clarity is one of the feeders for edition wars, and much forum posturing of course. In everyone's local bubble, they are right.

Generally, I suspect a large majority for whom game problems due to systems of mechanics or RPG design discussed here are vaguely recognisable beneath the hyperbole used in the forums to justify pro- or anti- stances. Some of these people might benefit from all the arguments if a better system that fixes the extremes pops out due to a bit of robust debate.

At least I'd like to think that not all the RPG design discussions here are just numbers of angels dancing on pin heads.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
What you seem to be denying is that most people don't have that problem, and that a comparable number (such as myself) find that the martial classes are typically favored by the players and do better in the game.
That's not what I read in [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s post. What I read is him saying that those who say they do not have the issue seem to be either incapable of exaplaining or unwilling to explain why or how they manage to avoid the issue, whereas those who say they do have the issue are able to quite clearly explain how a normal and unextreme playstyle leads to the issue for them.

So far, I haven't seen this change.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
That's not what I read in [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s post. What I read is him saying that those who say they do not have the issue seem to be either incapable of exaplaining or unwilling to explain why or how they manage to avoid the issue, whereas those who say they do have the issue are able to quite clearly explain how a normal and unextreme playstyle leads to the issue for them.
You can't prove a negative. It's really inherently difficult to support the idea that D&D is not some kind of wildly unbalanced failure of a game that people can't play. The only thing one can really do is call out that viewpoint for what it is: ridiculous.

The level of evidence required to support a claim is proportionate to how radically that claim diverges from accepted fact. Given that the basic paradigm how how D&D handles magic has been around and sold well for decades and is the rpg we all came to these boards to talk about, given that the 3e rules system has been around for over a decade and is still clearly going strong, the claim that either of these approaches is fundamentally wrong or that 3e (not a spell, or even a class, but an entire system) is "broken" is an extreme one, and requires more justification than "someone on the charop boards did X" or "in my games, X always happens".
 

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