Wither the Wizard? (or: Bards don’t have ACNE)


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Li Shenron

Legend
For spellcasting classes, the class table identifies both the number of spells you prepare at that level and the number of slots you have at each level. This is a major change. For the bard, the number of spells known is more or less the same – any given level might be +/-1 or 2, but ultimately it’s a wash. In fact, Songs of Restoration makes it so that you have up to 5 more spells known.
I am just reading it now and indeed if this new approach spellcasting reaches the new PHB, it is such a massive change that I wouldn't hesitate to call this a full new edition of the game, and that might actually be a relief for me since I'd rather have a completely new game option than a half-baked revision. I am surprise there isn't already a few threads discussing this...

But then, either I am overlooking something or by this new proposed spellcasting ruleset the Bard actually knows all arcane spells. At least I don't see a number of spells known by level. And the results is not really more or less the same... I think the new arcane spells list include something like 8 valid cantrips and 17 first-level spells, that's a lot more than the 5e Bard knows.

The same goes for cantrips: the number in the table is the number of cantrips prepared on a given day, which can be changed to any others on a long rest. Cantrips work more similar to spells with these rules, except that they still can be cast at-will instead of being limited by available slots.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I am just reading it now and indeed if this new approach spellcasting reaches the new PHB, it is such a massive change that I wouldn't hesitate to call this a full new edition of the game, and that might actually be a relief for me since I'd rather have a completely new game option than a half-baked revision. I am surprise there isn't already a few threads discussing this...

But then, either I am overlooking something or by this new proposed spellcasting ruleset the Bard actually knows all arcane spells. At least I don't see a number of spells known by level. And the results is not really more or less the same... I think the new arcane spells list include something like 8 valid cantrips and 17 first-level spells, that's a lot more than the 5e Bard knows.

The same goes for cantrips: the number in the table is the number of cantrips prepared on a given day, which can be changed to any others on a long rest. Cantrips work more similar to spells with these rules, except that they still can be cast at-will instead of being limited by available slots.
To some degree there has been discussion tangential one or two steps down from the change itself & more speculation on what wizard/sorcerer/warlock versions might look like. It looks like prepared from the arcane list divination illusion enchantment transmutation spells plus possible class based freebies. Shy of possible 2 magical secrets they don't know any abjuration conjuration necromancy or evocation so are still limited to a selection of arcane spells unless they get them from a different source.


I haven't counted & compared the slots themselves, but this little sheet comparing 5e to 3.5 spell prep puts the gap at -3 to +11 prepared spells going to this style & instead of just a bunch of generic prepslots used for the most powerful spells the prep slots get used for level appropriate spell selections. It's going to be hard to judge how moving bard to being prepared fits alongside other casters until we start seeing or hearing more than the current selection of tea leaves that people are trying to read in the packet.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I am just reading it now and indeed if this new approach spellcasting reaches the new PHB, it is such a massive change that I wouldn't hesitate to call this a full new edition of the game, and that might actually be a relief for me since I'd rather have a completely new game option than a half-baked revision. I am surprise there isn't already a few threads discussing this...

But then, either I am overlooking something or by this new proposed spellcasting ruleset the Bard actually knows all arcane spells. At least I don't see a number of spells known by level. And the results is not really more or less the same... I think the new arcane spells list include something like 8 valid cantrips and 17 first-level spells, that's a lot more than the 5e Bard knows.

The same goes for cantrips: the number in the table is the number of cantrips prepared on a given day, which can be changed to any others on a long rest. Cantrips work more similar to spells with these rules, except that they still can be cast at-will instead of being limited by available slots.
Limited by School: ao they know about half of all Arcane Spells, yes. Crawford said in the videos that all Spellcasters are going to be prepared Spells now, so expect that for Sorcerer and Warlock as well.
 

Frozen_Heart

Adventurer
Sorcerers losing the ability to summon creatures related to their bloodline sounds awful. So it will totally happen.

I had great fun as a dragonriding sorcerer last campaign I played. DM let me take true polymorph as well in order to turn into a dragon of her bloodline for the final battle.

Edit: summon spells are conjuration, not transmutation. not sure why i thought that.

Edit: It would stop them being able to cast elemental manipulation spells though as they're transmutation. Yep, your air genasi storm sorcerer can't cast Gust.
 
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I disagree. Like I said, the current warlock list is very thematic, and I don’t see any way to reproduce that with the power source and spell school approach. There’s no combination that doesn’t give them unfitting spells, remove fitting spells, or both. Plus, only being able to prepare two spells per day would be awful.
The train has left the station. The horse has bolted.

The Bard has 4 schools from the Arcane list + Some healing spells. Those include plenty of "unfitting" spells, and the Bard is also missing some "fitting" spells and spells it currently has access to.

The Ranger has all Primal spells except Evocation. There's tons of "unfitting" spells on there, unless you see a Ranger as basically a Fighter/Thief/Druid.

The Sorcerer is not going to get their own list. They're going to get the Arcane list + Bloodline spells. That includes plenty of "unfitting" spells.

As for only preparing two spells, how many spells exactly do you think a Level 1 Warlock has access to right now? I'll tell you - it's two. And those are fixed. Now they can change them. Plus they get two spells from the Patron, which I imagine would stay the same for compatibility's sake.

So what would they get? 2 changeable, 2 fixed from Patron. That's a straight upgrade on the current situation at L1.

As they level up, there would be an issue, but that could easily be solved simply by giving them more spell slots, or just by retaining the current mechanic and making it not "spells known" but "spells prepared".
 

Mephista

Explorer
The only thing "unfitting" for a sorcerer spell is that some people really, really get into the idea that sorcerers should be incapable of casting "complex" spells and be a gimp'd wizard.

Forget the martial/caster divide. We've got the Sorcerer/Wizard divide.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
At this moment, I feel that Wizards having access to all Arcane spells to prepare from in the "morning" is A Bridge Too Far for me.

I was okay with it for Clerics cause I said "Players Handbook only", and powers can impart wisdom on the spot, so...

But an arcane caster that has no need to research or find spells? Enemy spellbooks no longer as treasure?

"Don't worry guys, I'll have teleport ready in a minute/in the morning."

Big paradigm shift for me, I can see I will be struggling with this one of it comes to pass.


PS: Wouldn't need wizard academies or be an apprentice to a famous wizard anymore...

PPS: I need to sleep on this...
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
I just appreciate that they took the part that made Wizard and Cleric so unpleasant for me to play (the daily homework of picking spells) and are apparently transplanting it into EVERY caster from here on out.

Thank you for that guys. You took my favorite class from me. Again.

Edit: And this likely means wizards are going to be able to cast ANY of the spells they put into their book, effectively becoming what the Sorcerer should have been all those years ago, and ironically being the only class that doesn't have to homework their spell list.
 

Sorcerers losing the ability to summon creatures related to their bloodline sounds awful. So it will totally happen.
The only specific bloodline sorcerer in 5e is the Dragonblood. Bloodlines being the only explanation for sorcerers is a Pathfinder thing not a D&D one and it's one of the many things that to me makes Pathfinder blander than 5e.
Edit: It would stop them being able to cast elemental manipulation spells though as they're transmutation. Yep, your air genasi storm sorcerer can't cast Gust.
And this I agree is a problem.
The train has left the station. The horse has bolted.
No it hasn't. The train is currently in the station and being loaded up. That's, after all, what playtesting is for.

With luck feedback on how the current ranger is as dull as ditchwater even compared to the Tasha's ranger and how the Bard not having group buff spells will cause the designers to rethink.
The Ranger has all Primal spells except Evocation. There's tons of "unfitting" spells on there, unless you see a Ranger as basically a Fighter/Thief/Druid.
Unfitting spells aren't a problem - or at least wouldn't be a problem on a spells known caster like a Ranger or Bard. Because you don't have to allow those spells anywhere near your specific ranger or bard.

Meanwhile the change to Spells Prepared means that they are options in character for every single character.
As for only preparing two spells, how many spells exactly do you think a Level 1 Warlock has access to right now? I'll tell you - it's two. And those are fixed.
There has always been a major difference between the Sorcerer and the Warlock this way - the Warlock and Sorcerer have always known about as many spells as each other but:
  1. Due to Pact Magic the Warlock only needs the breadth of spells to support a single spell level while the Sorcerer needs to support multiple levels
  2. The Sorcerer gets a basic "commoner package" (d6 hit dice, 2 known skills, no armour, simple weapons) and then literally everything they do is about casting. Meanwhile the Warlock gets a much more expansive package including armour (only light - but better than nothing), invocations, and a pact boon. Their pact magic is a big part of their package but it is by no means all of it.
The problem has never been Spells Prepared vs Spells Known. It's been how risibly few Spells Known the Sorcerer got for a primary caster whose abilities are all about casting. No one really was complaining about the warlock - and people were saying the bard was possibly OP
 

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