JoeGKushner
Adventurer
painandgreed said:
Unless they take it down in the first round though, I don't see even buffing helping. At the level differences in play, the lich could easily dispel most of those buff effects on the characters no?
Wiz18 Lich vs. four 12th level characters
- Thread starter Arnwyn
- Start date
Unless they take it down in the first round though, I don't see even buffing helping. At the level differences in play, the lich could easily dispel most of those buff effects on the characters no?
Steel_Wind
Legend
Depends on the lich's prepared spells.
If he has time stop or wish? It's over.
If he has time stop or wish? It's over.
painandgreed
First Post
JoeGKushner said:
I'm not up on my high level play, but if he cast Dispel Magic as an area effect he could dispel one buff on each character and that would be an attack spell lost. IIRC, such a dispell would affect only the highest level spell so if they were able to buff with something of a higher level that wasn't as needed as other buffs, then they wouldn't lose anything really important.
Corinthi
First Post
Alright, my suggestion is this.
Take off the kid gloves. Rather than worrying about whether an 18th level Lich sans Magic Items is an appropriate challenge for your PCs, worry about what your hyper intelligent, thoroughly immoral, and fully equipped 18th Level Lich Wizard can do your PCs.
Not every encounter in D&D need end in death and destruction.
The PCs need something from the Lich's castle. The Lich likely has said someone about for a reason. Using Project Image in conjunction with cleverly placed arrowslits/murder holes/peep holes, the Lich can converse with the party with relative impunity. Be logical, be concise, and be honest with the party.
'Hold a moment. This is merely an illusion for the purpose of conversation. I come to parlay, not to destroy.
'Yes, I understand that as a well equipped adventuring band, likely with good aligned clerics or even Paladins, several of you may be intent on destroying me. Some of you may just be bloodthirsty or just plain greedy, and hope that the destruction of my physical form will leave you with both power and riches.
'And you know, you just might be able to pull it off. Your warriors look to have mighty thews, your casters seem well educated, and the sneaky one looks particularly devious. However, please keep in mind that I'm terribly clever, and the lot of you are in my home, which I've designed to minimize any chance of a fair fight. I'm skilled enough of a Necromancer to ensure my own unlife, and have survived a dozen assasination attempts from my own peers, much less a band of adventurers, whom as far as I can tell weren't prepared to confront a Lich this day.
'So, while I'm fairly confident that I could destroy the lot of you and raise you as my Undead minions, I'd just as soon work out some sort of amiable compromise that will allow me to return to my research, and the lot of you to return to your no doubt fascinating adventures.
'Now, if you'd be so kind to mention just why you're disturbing my research?'
Turn a potentially lethal encounter into a chance for diplomacy. Your party might not take the opportunity, but at least you won't need feel guilty if the encounter turns into a TPK.
Not to say this encounter is without teeth. The Lich may not want to relinquish the prize they seek, at least, not without some sort of service. Perhaps he has a rival that he wishes destroyed. Another powerful undead or evil priest whom the Liche doesn't feel confident outliving.
I'd also suggest making the Lich lawful and honorable. He may be evil, but he'll keep his word. Just for a little extra grey in the morality stew.
Take off the kid gloves. Rather than worrying about whether an 18th level Lich sans Magic Items is an appropriate challenge for your PCs, worry about what your hyper intelligent, thoroughly immoral, and fully equipped 18th Level Lich Wizard can do your PCs.
Not every encounter in D&D need end in death and destruction.
The PCs need something from the Lich's castle. The Lich likely has said someone about for a reason. Using Project Image in conjunction with cleverly placed arrowslits/murder holes/peep holes, the Lich can converse with the party with relative impunity. Be logical, be concise, and be honest with the party.
'Hold a moment. This is merely an illusion for the purpose of conversation. I come to parlay, not to destroy.
'Yes, I understand that as a well equipped adventuring band, likely with good aligned clerics or even Paladins, several of you may be intent on destroying me. Some of you may just be bloodthirsty or just plain greedy, and hope that the destruction of my physical form will leave you with both power and riches.
'And you know, you just might be able to pull it off. Your warriors look to have mighty thews, your casters seem well educated, and the sneaky one looks particularly devious. However, please keep in mind that I'm terribly clever, and the lot of you are in my home, which I've designed to minimize any chance of a fair fight. I'm skilled enough of a Necromancer to ensure my own unlife, and have survived a dozen assasination attempts from my own peers, much less a band of adventurers, whom as far as I can tell weren't prepared to confront a Lich this day.
'So, while I'm fairly confident that I could destroy the lot of you and raise you as my Undead minions, I'd just as soon work out some sort of amiable compromise that will allow me to return to my research, and the lot of you to return to your no doubt fascinating adventures.
'Now, if you'd be so kind to mention just why you're disturbing my research?'
Turn a potentially lethal encounter into a chance for diplomacy. Your party might not take the opportunity, but at least you won't need feel guilty if the encounter turns into a TPK.
Not to say this encounter is without teeth. The Lich may not want to relinquish the prize they seek, at least, not without some sort of service. Perhaps he has a rival that he wishes destroyed. Another powerful undead or evil priest whom the Liche doesn't feel confident outliving.
I'd also suggest making the Lich lawful and honorable. He may be evil, but he'll keep his word. Just for a little extra grey in the morality stew.
jgsugden
Legend
This is too subjective. Imagine the Lich was diviner/loremaster who turned to necromancy to extend his studies, and thus posessed only a few combat spells, and those were low level spells (magic missile, hold person, etc ...) Imagine that it was not expecting to go into battle that day and had devoted most of its spells for the day to divinations.
Under those circumstances, where the spells are almost useless for combat, 18 levels of wizard are very roughly equivalent to 9 levels of fighter. As such, the added difficulties created by tossing on the lich abilities would make the encounter into something akin to CR 13 to 15 fight.
OTOH, a lich well prepared for combat with optimal spell selection might be a CR 22 to 24 fight.
Under those circumstances, where the spells are almost useless for combat, 18 levels of wizard are very roughly equivalent to 9 levels of fighter. As such, the added difficulties created by tossing on the lich abilities would make the encounter into something akin to CR 13 to 15 fight.
OTOH, a lich well prepared for combat with optimal spell selection might be a CR 22 to 24 fight.
If your players use their heads and use tactics and terrain advantage they should hold their own.
My question is, how would a 18Wiz lich have no magic items?? Usually to get to that state they should know that it's best to be prepared...Unless your Lich is just a Cocky bastard and thinks he's all that, I guess he'll learn his lesson soon.
My question is, how would a 18Wiz lich have no magic items?? Usually to get to that state they should know that it's best to be prepared...Unless your Lich is just a Cocky bastard and thinks he's all that, I guess he'll learn his lesson soon.
Corinthi
First Post
Tarangil said:
1. The players don't know there's a bleeding 18th level Lich in the castle.
2. Said Lich owns said castle.
3. Said lich is a wizard with a higher point buy than the PCs in question.
4. Unless the DM purposesly cripples the Lich, he'll be the one with the tactics and the terrain advantage.... and the 9th's level spell.
As for the PC's holding their own, I just don't see it. Not with the scenario laid out as it has been. The odds are stacked too highly in the Lich's favor.
If the lich is properly played the PC’s don’t stand a chance.
Your group seems like the one that CR’s are tested for so while CR’s are tricky they actually have meaning in this case. An 18th level lich is a CR 20 encounter, considering the conditions (The lich has knowledge of the PC’s and they don’t, it knows the castle inside and out and they don’t) that’s about a +2 modifier. The lack of gear for the lich is only slightly mitigating as it is a high level caster and can easily compensate. So you’re looking at a CR 20-22 encounter for 12th level characters – that’s an almost certain TPK. Even with a 15th level lich, considering the conditions, it’s a likely-certain TPK.
The lich will have surprise, so just has too many options. One Mass Charm monster (8th level save 20-22+) and game over for the party. One finger of death and a 5th or so quickened spell and once again game over for the party.
Even if the lich (stupidly) enters into melee its 15/blunt and magic damage reduction should allow it to escape and regroup.
I think the best option here is the one Corinthi stated. Have the Lich take off the kid gloves; but instead of attacking to kill, have the lich trick or force the party to serve its own ends.
Your group seems like the one that CR’s are tested for so while CR’s are tricky they actually have meaning in this case. An 18th level lich is a CR 20 encounter, considering the conditions (The lich has knowledge of the PC’s and they don’t, it knows the castle inside and out and they don’t) that’s about a +2 modifier. The lack of gear for the lich is only slightly mitigating as it is a high level caster and can easily compensate. So you’re looking at a CR 20-22 encounter for 12th level characters – that’s an almost certain TPK. Even with a 15th level lich, considering the conditions, it’s a likely-certain TPK.
The lich will have surprise, so just has too many options. One Mass Charm monster (8th level save 20-22+) and game over for the party. One finger of death and a 5th or so quickened spell and once again game over for the party.
Even if the lich (stupidly) enters into melee its 15/blunt and magic damage reduction should allow it to escape and regroup.
I think the best option here is the one Corinthi stated. Have the Lich take off the kid gloves; but instead of attacking to kill, have the lich trick or force the party to serve its own ends.
Arnwyn
First Post
Aust Diamondew said:
Like I said, no magic items.Storm Raven said:
Irrelevant to the original premise. I'm just looking for insight based on what people think might occur (especially if it's based on one's experience - though, of course, not based on any experience based on this specific example, which is unlikely). Just an idea based on what a high-level lich relied on more than others.Conaill said:
Woo!domino said:
Exactly so. My original estimation is that he would be about CR 16 (as opposed to CR 20) with no magic items.JoeGKushner said:
The final battle showdown is likely in a large-sized crypt (maybe 100' x 60') with a 15' high ceiling. The person the PCs are seeking will be found there, and the lich will refuse to give up that person at all costs.
The lich has been, for the last 500 years, a glorified babysitter.
The lich won't know the PCs are coming until the PCs arrive. He will not be fully prepped for combat (though there will be a decent amount of combat spells prepared), and spell selection will be a wide mix of combat, divination, and movement.
Thanks for everyone's views so far. The multiplicity of opinions have given me good concept of what I might be able to expect, and what is 'survivable' for a party of four 12th level characters in situations I might not otherwise have thought of. Good stuff!
