Wizard spellbook blues

[ElectricDragon]

To Irdreggman: None of what I posted was House Rules.

The six spells are found spells, i.e. on a scroll. These are in addition to the free spells that a 5th level wizard would get (which would be 8 spells not 6). The free spells are figured into the numbers for worth, not cost and are figured as if the spells chosen were the highest level that the wizard could cast at the time the free spells were gained. Character wealth is figured from worth not cost. Until a wizard reaches 5th level, his spellbook is worth more than the figures for character wealth even if he finds no scrolls to add to his spellbook.

The example wizard would have 19 cantrips and 3 1st level spells plus 3 more 1st level spells for his Intelligence modifier of +3. He would gain 2 free spells at each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th levels (for a total of 8 spells, 2 1st, 4 2nd, and 2 3rd). The 2 1st, 3 2nd and 1 3rd level spells were found on scrolls and had to be added manually to his spellbook; the cost figures for time and money reflect this.

So a 1st-4th level wizard should gain no treasure because his character wealth is higher than what is suggested under the wealth guidelines.

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

To Irdreggman: None of what I posted was House Rules.

The six spells are found spells, i.e. on a scroll. These are in addition to the free spells that a 5th level wizard would get (which would be 8 spells not 6). The free spells are figured into the numbers for worth, not cost and are figured as if the spells chosen were the highest level that the wizard could cast at the time the free spells were gained. Character wealth is figured from worth not cost. Until a wizard reaches 5th level, his spellbook is worth more than the figures for character wealth even if he finds no scrolls to add to his spellbook.

The example wizard would have 19 cantrips and 3 1st level spells plus 3 more 1st level spells for his Intelligence modifier of +3. He would gain 2 free spells at each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th levels (for a total of 8 spells, 2 1st, 4 2nd, and 2 3rd). The 2 1st, 3 2nd and 1 3rd level spells were found on scrolls and had to be added manually to his spellbook; the cost figures for time and money reflect this.

So a 1st-4th level wizard should gain no treasure because his character wealth is higher than what is suggested under the wealth guidelines.

Ciao
Dave

Note that the "wealth per level" tables should never be treated as exact. They are guidelines only. Also they do not relfect "free" things characters get (like the initial spellbook and those "free" spells per level). They also wouldn't reflect things like ancestral weapons that certain non-core classes get "free" to start.

"Wealth is based on average treasures found". It costs the wizard nothing to add his "free" spells into his spellbook - so he has spent "0 gp" in treasure to do so. Spells copied or learned from other sources on the other hand. . . .

 

[ElectricDragon]

So crafted magic items, weapons, armor, etc. would not count for wealth? Only if the treasure was found? So characters need to partition their items by found, given/made? How about used? If a potion or scroll is used; is it still considered wealth if it was found? An enchanted sword that was crafted by its user and then magiced by its user is worth 1/3 the sword value and 1/2 the magic item value (or do you add 5 times those pesky xp points to this for a total)?

That is a more complicated game than I want to run.

Wealth = money and equipment owned. Found/made/given has nothing to do with it and just complicates the issue.


Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

So crafted magic items, weapons, armor, etc. would not count for wealth? Only if the treasure was found? So characters need to partition their items by found, given/made? How about used? If a potion or scroll is used; is it still considered wealth if it was found? An enchanted sword that was crafted by its user and then magiced by its user is worth 1/3 the sword value and 1/2 the magic item value (or do you add 5 times those pesky xp points to this for a total)?

That is a more complicated game than I want to run.

Wealth = money and equipment owned. Found/made/given has nothing to do with it and just complicates the issue.


Ciao
Dave

Wealth is based on treasure - that is how it is phrased.

What you would have to do is to count the gp cost of self-crafting the item as "treasure spent".


If do not use that scenario then you have specifically neutered anyone with a craft feat period.

Note that this only applies at character creation.

After that point the DM should be keeping track of what he is awarding in treasure and using that as his "benchmark".

It is not the player's responsibility to keep track of this "wealth" balance (after creation) - it is the DM's.

Now would the DM have to keep track of how the PC's divide up their treasure - since that would muck up the "balance"?

No - since he is dealing with an average, what the PCs do with their treasure is really moot to him, and should be.

 

[Mistwell]

To Irdreggman: None of what I posted was House Rules.

The six spells are found spells, i.e. on a scroll. These are in addition to the free spells that a 5th level wizard would get (which would be 8 spells not 6). The free spells are figured into the numbers for worth, not cost and are figured as if the spells chosen were the highest level that the wizard could cast at the time the free spells were gained. Character wealth is figured from worth not cost. Until a wizard reaches 5th level, his spellbook is worth more than the figures for character wealth even if he finds no scrolls to add to his spellbook.

The example wizard would have 19 cantrips and 3 1st level spells plus 3 more 1st level spells for his Intelligence modifier of +3. He would gain 2 free spells at each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th levels (for a total of 8 spells, 2 1st, 4 2nd, and 2 3rd). The 2 1st, 3 2nd and 1 3rd level spells were found on scrolls and had to be added manually to his spellbook; the cost figures for time and money reflect this.

So a 1st-4th level wizard should gain no treasure because his character wealth is higher than what is suggested under the wealth guidelines.

Ciao
Dave

I thought most people copy spells from other people's spellbooks rather than get them from purchases or found scrolls. Does that change your analysis?

 

[irdeggman]

I thought most people copy spells from other people's spellbooks rather than get them from purchases or found scrolls. Does that change your analysis?

Right and most wizards "charge" for copying spells. Unless of course there is a "trade" going on, but the text in the PHB says most charge.

"This fee is usually equal to the spell's level x 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether."


And the money paid must come from somewhere (like treasure).

 

[Shin Okada]

Talk to your DM about this issue. And if he does not want to change that house rule, ask him to throw many enemy wizards. Killing enemy wizards and using their spellbooks seems to be a way to go.

By the way, It seems like many here are running RHoD. In my case, I just warned our players that "Time will be important in this campaign. Thus, there will be not much time for buying/making magic items or anything else." So players did made Sorcerer and Warmage instead of Wizards, Paladin who concentrates on Divine feat instead of a Fighter who concentrates on his choice of weapon, etc. This kind of preparation is needed to make a campaign fun without using many house rules, IMHO.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Yeah, sure. Scrolls copied from someone else's spellbook represent an increase in the value of the spellbook thus an increase in character wealth and a decrease in "cash on hand or other trade value" thus a decrease in character wealth; giving an overall increase.

If the fighter has "Keen" and "Great Cleave" added to his weapon; does his character wealth decrease by the amount he paid (which may include non-monetary value) or increase by the new amount by which the weapon's Market Price increases? Or does his wealth not change? Or does it both decrease by the amount he paid and increase by the amount by which the weapon's Market Price increases?

Page 135 in the DMG under the heading, Character Wealth. The first sentence says "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including magic items."

The class: "Magic Items" includes the subclass "self-created magic items". Personally, I would add expensive non-magical items to this, too (spyglasses, masterwork weapons, catapults, boats, ships, castles, merchant guilds, inns, mounts, etc.) as another subclass of "Magic Items." All these are considered treasure on the treasure tables, including non-magical non-masterwork weapons and armors. Yet you say equipment does not count for wealth because it was bought or traded for.

The Craft skill is not neutered by costing "small" wealth and time and providing "big" wealth. Just like the Profession or Perform skill is not neutered by costing time and providing wealth.

Yes the tables are just guidelines; but should one character have enough wealth to enable his party of four characters be as wealthy as a party of five or six?

Players Handbook page 112, under the heading, Wealth Other than Coins: it says, "Most wealth is not in coins. It is livestock, grain, land, rights to collect taxes, or rights to resources (such as a mine or a forest). Gems and jewelry can also serve as portable wealth."

When you spend your wealth; if you get something back in return, that something back might increase your wealth. If that something back spends resources instead of or in addition to wealth (like time, or contacts, or benefits of belonging to an organization), the overall change to your wealth should almost always be an increase.

So wealth includes: coins, treasure, livestock, grain, land, rights to collect taxes, or rights to resources (such as a mine or a forest), gems, jewelry, and magic items. I would add buildings, ships, equipment, and stipends, but that is a house rule.

Ciao
Dave

 

[ElectricDragon]

Say I have a party of 5 2nd level characters that I have awarded 4500 gp worth of treasure to over the course of them adventuring from 1st to 2nd level. They spend that treasure to make 9000 gp worth of magic items (or 1800 gp each). They are normal 2nd level characters and are balanced with another party who kept the 900 gp each?

Ciao
Dave

 

[nittanytbone]

Say I have a party of 5 2nd level characters that I have awarded 4500 gp worth of treasure to over the course of them adventuring from 1st to 2nd level. They spend that treasure to make 9000 gp worth of magic items (or 1800 gp each). They are normal 2nd level characters and are balanced with another party who kept the 900 gp each?

Considering that they wasted feats on item crafting, burnt XP (valued by NPCs at 5 GP per XP), and spent some downtime, they aren't as far apart as one might think.