Wizard spellbook blues

[irdeggman]

Page 135 in the DMG under the heading, Character Wealth. The first sentence says "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including magic items."
Ciao
Dave

And the next sentence reads:

"Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience earned in those encounters."

This is clearly not self-made worth since it is "treasures found". Which is the basis for those tables. In other words they do not account for other wealth, only that from treasures found.

 

[irdeggman]

Yeah, sure. Scrolls copied from someone else's spellbook represent an increase in the value of the spellbook thus an increase in character wealth and a decrease in "cash on hand or other trade value" thus a decrease in character wealth; giving an overall increase.Ciao
Dave

First off you can not copy a scroll from a spell book.

You must cast the spell to make the scroll - it is not a xerox machine mechanic.

Next in order to "copy" a spell from another's spellbook.

You "normally" pay 50 gp per spell level for the "right" to have access.

Then you spend 100 gp per page to scribe it (1 paqe per spell level).

This money spent came from somewhere.

If it was treasure (per the wealth per level table) then it was accounted for at that time - not when it was "converted" into something else.

 

[Arkhandus]

First you have to decipher then you do that check every time you prepare that spell.

So 2 different spellcraft checks involved with this plan - one of which must be made repeatedly.

Though you can take 10 on those checks. It's not hard to get a Spellcraft bonus of 5 + level (3 ranks + 1 per level, + Int bonus).

 

[ElectricDragon]

Considering that they wasted feats on item crafting, burnt XP (valued by NPCs at 5 GP per XP), and spent some downtime, they aren't as far apart as one might think.

This includes a straight fighter who is just taking advantage of his party members feat choices.

And, let's see; more spent xp equals more time to gain new levels equals more treasure gained equals more powerful characters at the next level.

If the table is used as stated, to equip higher level characters (like for a one-shot, for example) wealth is a number that ranges from the amount for that level up to double that number (for example 12th level characters could have from 88,000 gp worth of treasure up to 176,000 gp). Seems unbalanced to me unless other things than what is mentioned explicitely for the table are taken into account (i.e. all magic items and expensive equipment). The main bonus of taking Item Creation feats should be that the player gets to choose which magic items he wants, not that and an increase in wealth.

First off you can not copy a scroll from a spell book.

You must cast the spell to make the scroll - it is not a xerox machine mechanic.

Next in order to "copy" a spell from another's spellbook.

You "normally" pay 50 gp per spell level for the "right" to have access.

Then you spend 100 gp per page to scribe it (1 paqe per spell level).

Oops, that word was supposed to be "spell" not "scroll." Of course, that seems obvious to me when reading it. Sorry, I'll try to be mistake-free from now on.

So wealth includes: coins, treasure, livestock, grain, land, rights to collect taxes, or rights to resources (such as a mine or a forest), gems, jewelry, and magic items.

So wealth means the above except for this table? Even though magic items (not treasure) were mentioned earlier in the same section on Character Wealth as a means of balancing wealth (and this "wealth" is not the later severely limited meaning of "wealth").

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

So wealth means the above except for this table? Even though magic items (not treasure) were mentioned earlier in the same section on Character Wealth as a means of balancing wealth (and this "wealth" is not the later severely limited meaning of "wealth").

Ciao
Dave

I'm just making the quoted text "accurate" in its context.

It is very clear (and specific) the character wealth by level table is "based on average treasures found". If that table is used for comparisons then its basis needs to be taken into account. The table also does not include income from professions or "working" either.

So if you want to say that "found" includes "made or bought" then you are free to do so.

I have pointed out that in order to "buy" something the money had to come from "somewhere" and that this "somewhere" is accounted for in the treasure awarded for encounters.

I'm only pointing out what the actual text says and trying not to cut and paste the text.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Yes, you are right, treasure = found/paid/acquired through adventuring. But, what I am saying is this is not balanced at all. Forget about Item Creation feats. Take a 12th level Rogue who spent less than 1/8 of his skill points on the Craft skill (shipmaking). His wealth can range from 88,000 gp to 264,000 gp depending on downtime; up to more than a character 4 levels higher than him. And this is just the tip, because each ship could be sold to get more money to build and sell more ships. Spend a feat on Leadership and this all happens in the background requiring no downtime. I have had several merchandising players determined to be rich; it changes your outlook.

If the table is to be used for balance, it has got to include more than just treasure found.

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

If the table is to be used for balance, it has got to include more than just treasure found.

Ciao
Dave

And there's the rub.

There really isn't anything that covers how to handle characters generating their own "wealth".

The trade off would of course be "time".

Since plying trades (using the profession skill) and crafting items all take "time" that the character wouldn't be spending adventureing. Thus less "treasure" and less xp.

Other than character creation, I wouldn't use the tables much at all. And when I did - it would be based on what I awarded as "treasure" since if the PCs made their own money then they have invested time and effort into it and shouldn't be "penalized" for doing so.

The GM controls all "treasure" and that is why he needs to keep track of it (for balance purposes). This is exttremely important since the typical PC distribution oftreasure is very rarely exactly "equal" and at any one point in time a PC could have more in "value" than another because of it. One has to be careful not to "set up" the "treasure" to balance out this "inconsistency", that is not to award more to make up for an unequal distribution.

At character creation - I would have the player's give me "histories" explaining how they "manufactured" what they did. In general when starting a game I tell the players they have X amount of xp and X gp with which to "equip" their character. If they have craft skills then they can make their own items (note you can't take 20 on a craft check) - but need to give justify it in a background and then they have to also subtract xp accordingly (if a magic item was "made"). The logic being that they have taken a "feat" (or more) and invested skill points in a skill that may or may not have applicationss during the game. Note that none of this is written down in the RAW, in fact it is really not addressed at all - only the amount of "treasure" found is. So pretty much we are left to house-rules for the best way to handle it.

 

[irdeggman]

Spend a feat on Leadership and this all happens in the background requiring no downtime. I have had several merchandising players determined to be rich; it changes your outlook.
Ciao
Dave

Try running a game with a domain level of play (like Birthright) where the PCs are "kings" and see how this makes things even more messy.

If cohorts are being allowed to generate income for their "leader" this is plain wrong. The rules talk about how cohorts should be "paid" and receive a portion of treasure.

DMG pg 105

"Treasure: Although the PCs can work out other deals, their cohorts usually get only a half share of any treasure the party gains. Sometimes a cohort seeks no pay, only the opportunity to serve alongside the PCs. Such cohorts require only living costs. However, they are not common."

 

[Slaved]

There is a prestige class where you can basically borrow spells from a mystical group storage place. If that fits in the campaign and with the character then maybe the dungeon master would be ok with just hand waving away the needing to check in for spells because you can just drop in and take a look at the free spells on the collective whenever you like.

I could be misremembering how the prestige class works though.

 

[Jhulae]

Heaven forbid the GM change his house rule after finding out his inital thoughts on how Wizards gained their spells was wrong.