Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Lamoni]

Very interesting thread.

Just a few points: We have already discussed many sets of spells that the wizard will have prepared. Yet he can't have all of them prepared without scrolls... and I hope we reduced his wealth by the appropriate amount. If he created them, then maybe the wizard should still be at level 19 after using up XP.

Another thing... I find it odd that a wizard would have several spells with expensive material components without casting any of them before the encounter with the monk. We should probably cut down on the wizard's wealth a little bit more if we assume he has had practice in casting them on his journey to level 20.

Anyway, I think that we have demonstrated that the wizard can easily win if he knows what preparations the monk has made. The monk has disintigrate? Let's not waste a round with forcecage. The monk can fly? Let's not worry about casting fly. The monk has protection from good (and ignores summoned creatures)? Let's not summon any monsters. Etc. The problem is that the wizard excels most when he can study his opponent. If he can't, it is much tougher.

Now if a monk was told exactly what the wizard had prepared before the fight, then it wouldn't be too hard to find ways to counter them. The problem is that neither side supposedly knows. The wizard does have an advantage because he can be more flexible with less money. The monk has to invest his wealth in completely different items in order to use different tactics.

Another thing. We are assuming 3.0? If we want to allow the more powerful 3.0 version of several spells, while we use the less powerful 3.0 monk... why even do the contest? I guess that a level 20 monk is about the same in either version, but in 3.0 very few monks would live long enough to reach level 20.

Those are my two cents. I think that it was all summed up well by the person who posted his results from actually performing the battles in 4 different arenas. I am also impressed by some of the different ideas presented like the monk with fireballs and the monk with the water elementals. If I were the wizard, I would be caught completely by surprise.

 

[Thanee]

Another thing... I find it odd that a wizard would have several spells with expensive material components...

Which one apart from Force Cage?

Anyway, I think that we have demonstrated that the wizard can easily win if he knows what preparations the monk has made. The monk has disintigrate? Let's not waste a round with forcecage.

How about we start at the right point... the Disintegrate was the counter to the Force Cage, since the monk was preparing for the wizard's preparations, not the other way around.

Another thing. We are assuming 3.0?

I don't think so. 3.5 is the current edition.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lamoni]

Just a few more questions I had. If the wizard uses true strike and otto's irresistable dance, is there a way for the wizard not to have to run up to the monk to touch him? I think that any smart monk will not stand close enough for the wizard to do this. The monk will either close completely, or stay 40 feet away ready to close next round.

Two more items that could be quite valuable for the monk. A ring of spell turning and some dust of disappearance.

Which one apart from Force Cage?

Maybe there wasn't another one. But I know that gate was mentioned as a buffing spell that can be cast during a time stop. That does have a significant XP cost with it.

How about we start at the right point... the Disintegrate was the counter to the Force Cage, since the monk was preparing for the wizard's preparations, not the other way around.

Very true. The monk would have to try to counter some tactic they thought the wizard would employ. If the monk knows what the wizard is going to do and the wizard is still clueless, the monk CAN win and will have a good chance. The thing is if the wizard knows what the monk has planned the wizard WILL win and there is no chance for the monk.

In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.

 

[Macbrea]

In a sense, I tried to counter any tactic a wizard might employ. By simply walling yourself off and doing your own prep work. Then summoning the wizard with a wish spell. You very quickly counter alot of stuff the wizard had done. The wizard is left outside the wall of force trying to figure a good way to take it down. If he realizes it is up in the first place.

 

[Arkhandus]

For my example, at least, I was using 3.0 core, because 3.5 core includes even more cheese for the wizard. Many of the things Thanee has mentioned, for instance, weren't in 3.0 core, so the monk's best chance in this comparison is 3.0 core; 3.5 just gives even more goodies to the wizard so he has even more/better ways to screw over everyone else without even picking up a supplement.

A monk's save bonuses and Spell Resistance are nothing to a high-level wizard with Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Headband of Intellect, the appropriate Tome that boosts Int, etc. Supplemental material, such as Spellcasting Prodigy, Metamagic Rods, and so on are really just gravy for the wizard.

As I already pointed out in my example, which applies about as well in 3.5 too, the monk really doesn't have a chance of resisting the wizard's spells often enough; he only has a small chance of avoiding or resisting any given spell. The wizard WILL destroy the monk with one death spell or another; even if the monk is protected against death effects somehow, a Prismatic Spray or Heightened Flesh To Stone will still lay waste to the monk easily. The wizard's defensive spells, combined with Time Stop, will allow him to resist or avoid the monk's feeble attempts at putting up a fight, long enough for the wizard to utterly annihilate the monk.

The monk has a meager, though not impossible, chance of overcoming the wizard. Forcecage could work, but it could also be countered one way or another, and the wizard doesn't need it anyway. Any Wish the monk could make with a Ring of Three Wishes could be countered by the wizard making his own Wish, if even necessary, and I'm quite certain the wizard wouldn't fail any saves against the monk's attempted Wishes (except on a natural 1, so a 5% chance that the wizard could die to a Wish, Quivering Palm, or the like; but who's to say he won't have a Contingency up before that point that will teleport his corpse to his favorite temple, to be True Resurrected by his onetime cleric comrade? And then proceed to teleport back and massacre the monk).

Keep in mind that wizards, at high level, pretty much as a rule will have 18+ Intelligence, which is GENIUS-level intellect. Anyone who doesn't take that into account is doing the wizard a disservice and completely forsaking realism in the situation. Especially since any wizard who has survived to 20th-level is going to be quite experienced in combat.

 

[Arkhandus]

In any case, all the Wizard really needs to do is Wish the monk's possessions away, or Disjunction to hapless monk and ruin the monk's foolish plan of using magical items to overcome a master of magic who needs no such crutch. A wizard can overcome material needs through Spell Mastery and Eschew Materials in most cases. Even if the monk were to Wish away the wizard's gear, the wizard could probably still mop the floor with the monk and then retrieve his gear. Unlike the monk, the wizard isn't limited by the number of wishes contained in an item, and isn't limited by the base save DC for them (23 for Wish; the wizard I partially statted up earlier would have another +10 or so to the DC when casting it).

 

[Bryan898]

The higher point buy is to the monk's advantage right there. That's part of the problem - most characters aren't built on that many points.

IME actually most characters are built on that many points. IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy. The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy. It's not like the monk gets extra points.

But they keep you occupied, which is the point. And a greater air elemental's unmodified attack bonus is +23. Four of them slamming you twice per round will hit your 37 AC 2.4 times per round, for an average of 14 points of damage per hit, or 33.6 points of damage per round. Throw in a couple of attack spells to target you, and your monk is hurting.

How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens? Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard.

Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A greater rod of sudden quicken is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.

No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate. There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG. It's on page 285 of the DMG. Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules.

Against which, you have no means of retaliating. You're in a dimension locked forcecage remember? He only has to reel off a couple of those, a couple of horrid wiltings, even a series of magic missiles and you aren't doing much of anything any more.

I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement. Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages. So now what ya gonna do?

You are forgetting things like luckstones, pale green ioun stones, and so on. Just those two items added reduce the chance of failure to 40%.

True, but the monk could have diverted more points into his Wis, or taken the feat Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm) to add +2 to the DC. Ability Focus is Core btw, and is found in the back of the MM. They are listed as typically only being used by monsters, not exclusively. The fact that Awesome Blow is listed as a possible Fighter bonus feat and the recent statement by WotC that the monk may take Improved Natural Attack further cement this statement. The monk could easily improve the DC of Quiverring Palm to 33.

And if the monk doesn't get the wizard off the bat, the monk is almost certainly dead. The wizard just has too many options to lock down and destroy the monk.

Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well. Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above.

I don't need to know. If I win initative, I lock him down in the first round and finish him off however I want. If I lose Initiative, I know what he's going to do - because he does it. Then I react once he's committed.[/.quote]

No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started.

 

[Bryan898]

Just a few more questions I had. If the wizard uses true strike and otto's irresistable dance, is there a way for the wizard not to have to run up to the monk to touch him? I think that any smart monk will not stand close enough for the wizard to do this. The monk will either close completely, or stay 40 feet away ready to close next round.

A very interesting point, and with the monk's speed of 90+ it's near impossible for the wizard to move in close enough without the monk getting a chance to attack.

 

[Bryan898]

With Moment of Prescience.

Ouch... darn Moment of Prescience... that does increase the chances of the first save enough to effect the likelyhood of the outcome. Score 2 points for the wizard.

That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days.

True but we run the risk of this going from a duel to a long term feud.

Didn't they know about ring of counterspells?

Yes, but that and the chance of failing are why you buy more than one scroll. I was just demonstrating that a simple spell can cause all this well timed planning to fall apart.

How about Shapechange? Or Gate for the 'summons'; 40 HD outsiders can be quite nasty.

Shapechange is another good option- change into something with a high Con to increase that Fort save and decrease the monk's chances dramatically.

Gate is also a good option, but you'd have to assume extra XP. Otherwise you couldn't cast the spell as stated on page 174 of the PHB. I quote: "You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare." That would also rule out Wish btw. However, you could choose to remain as 19th level and use the XP for those spells, as stated after the above quote.


The Moment of Presience against his save definetely puts a damper on the monk. That probably swings thing in the wizards favor IMO. However, I still think the monk stands a chance, even though the class is horribly underpowered. The only thing a monk is good at is killing spellcasters, you'd expect him to have the upper hand when doing the only thing he's good at. In all truth, the monk should be able to kill the wizard 90% of the time if they had made him capable of doing his job. The wizard on the other hand is geared towards other areas then monk killing, so this change wouldn't unbalance the class in the least.

 

[Thanee]

In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.

I see, sorry, if that came across wrong.

Bye
Thanee