Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Shadowdweller]

Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.

By the "normal" rules the standard is 25 (Elite Array). The average based on the standard 4d6, drop lowest is actually HIGHER. (~28 or so IIRC).

 

[tylermalan]

By my arguement I meant to say that if you allow such abilities to enable the monk or wizard to leave the arena, then it's not really an arena battle. By saying they fight in the arena, whther it be a flat plain or a 10 foot cube, it should be assumed that they STAY in the arena. Teleporting to another end or screwing with the rate of time flow is perfectly fine INSIDE THE ARENA. If the wizard teleports away to re-configure his spells, why should the monk have to just wait around. Any reasonable ruling would call it a retreat by the wizard and give the monk victory by default.

Also, I wasn't trying to think up arenas the were for the single purpose of dooming the wizard. Just pointing out that without terrain and such, you would be dooming the monk. Let me put it to you this way: If it was 200 feet away, no obstacles blocking initial line of sight (or effect) to each other, and the wizard were against an arrow demon class leveled up to ECL 20 instead of the monk, would he still be happy with the starting conditions? Any battle field that allows the longer ranged guy or the one with the "bigger guns" to pincussion the other guy in the first round seems unbalanced to me.

Oh ok, I got what you're saying. However, I think that by limiting the arena to such stringent rules, you're indirectly taking away from the effectiveness of a Wizard's class abilities - i.e., his ability to cast any spell he knows that comes from the PHB. If you don't allow him to teleport (or cast any other spell) to the maximum range that is allowed by the spell, then you're hampering his class-given abilities, which I think is what we're trying NOT to do, because this is a fight between a monk and a wizard, not a monk and a slightly worse than core wizard. That's like saying:

"Ok, let's pit a Monk and a Fighter against each other, but the arena is closed, meaning you can't leave it, and it's too small for the Monk to Abundant Step to his full range, because even if he started on one extreme border when he Stepped, he would Step out of the arena, and lose the fight by default." - That sounds like its making the Monk's class abilities a little worse, hampering the class.

 

[Zimbel]

So then, pretty much what you're saying is that the Wizard is way better than the Monk, so much so that to make the odds "even", you have to take away a ton of the Wizard's inherent, class-based advantages? I'm not prodding, I'm actually asking if that's the point you're trying to get across.

Actually, I'm saying that a high-level Wizard is way better than an equivalent-leveled Monk (I do not, for example, believe this of a LV 1 Wiz vs. a LV 1 Monk). To make this fight even remotely close to fair, yes, we need to change the rules to favor the Monk. I was suggesting a set of rules which might do it. And, yes, as you suggest in your more recent argument, this is deliberately giving the Wizard unusual disadvantages and the Monk unusual advantages to try to get the odds closer to 50%.

 

[Storm Raven]

So what? I'm missing the point of lowering the point buy arguement. If you lower the point buy then not only does the monk's stats lower but so do the wizard's. The wizard will need a high Int and decent Con and Dex for hit points and AC/ touch attacks. The Monk I post needs a high Wis, and decent Dex and Con. They both require the same attributes and lowering the point buy affects both the same.

The monk, more than any other class, is highly dependent upon high ability scores. By skewing the range up above the norm, you automatically give the monk an advantange compared to the baseline given in the core rules.

Not very. You cast time stop, assume you get 4 rounds, then summon four greater air elementals. A 9th level spell, and four 8th level spells or 2-3 more 9th level spells. Not a very great strategy for the cost.

It puts obstacles in your way that will inflict damage that you cannot save against. A couple rounds of being pounded on by elementals and your monk will be roughed up enough to deal with. A couple rounds of elemental attacks gives the wizard time to do other things.

Yeah, 11,000 gp out of 760,000 gp isn't a bad deal when forcecage is the most mentioned strategy so far. You do have a vast repertoire of spells, many of which allow a save, which gives the monk a chance. Forcecage was one of the strategies that doesn't, and making it moot for a measly 33,000 gp is definetely worth it.

33,000 gp that you can't spend on something of general utility, that is also completely useless to you unless the wizard does exactly as you expect him to.

Many of which don't. Heck, just a plain, vanilla magic missile doesn't allow a save, and while you are busy trying to get around the elementals at the flying wizard, he'll pick away at your hit points with that. Or true strike and scorching ray, or some other combination of spells.

Says who? The people that have the authority to determine the rules says it is, and you're not anyone to say different. The very text in the monster manual says the feats are typically used only by monsters, not exclusively. The feats aren't limited to only monsters. Otherwise, good luck crafting a construct such as golem or shield guardian as its in the MM.

Says the core rules. The feats availabale for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.

Once again, it's in the book and nowhere does it state that PCs can't choose the feat. As for statements from WotC, just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean that its not true. Like it or not, they make the core rules and it's their right to change them or interpret them as they see fit. But that's a different discussion.

They could if they wanted, but they didn't. If they had, they would have issued errata. The FAQ is not core, and it is not errata.

And all the monk has to do is go into an enclosed area (such as a dungeon), where flying is not a viable option and wait for the wizard to come and get him. As the monk doesn't age, and there's no immortality spell for the wizard in the Core rules, eventually the wizard either pursues him or dies of old age.

The monk isn't immortal, he merely does not suffer the effects of aging. When he gets to his time, he still dies. As a wizard, I'd teleport away, and pick a battle at a time and place of my choosing. If the monk is going to bottle himself up in a dungeon he's not going to be much of a problem for me when I'm going about my business in the rest of the world now is he?

No, it's your turn, you cast a quickened dimensional lock and forcecage. It's the monk's turn, he escapes using one of his rod's of cancellation and a move action. You're back to square one, your turn again, except you're out a 7th level spell, an 8th level spell, and one of three daily uses of a 170,000 gp item. Meanwhile the monk's out of a measly 11,000 gp item. This is definetely in the monk's advantage.

Now I know what you are going to do. I've dragged thing out and gotten information. The longer the battle goes, the better off I am.

 

[Zimbel]

Yep, those are all able to win, some have a slightly lower chance, some a slightly higher chance, depending on circumstances, but it's really just the spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster issues at high levels, which are the 'problem'.

Spellcasting is simply too poweful at high levels for the non-spellcasters to stand a realistic chance.

Bye
Thanee

I'll second Thanee's view. This isn't just a problem of Wiz powerful vs Monk weak at high levels.

It's a problem of major spellcasters powerful vs non-major spellcasters weak at high levels.

Spellcasters get both too powerful of effects and too many effects in comparison to a non-major spellcaster at high levels.

 

[Zimbel]

Says the core rules. The feats available for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.

I don't think that I agree with you here; as I define the Core Rules are the PH, DMG, and MM, a feat in the MM is perfectly valid Core, unless it states that a PC/ member of the specified race can't take it.

On the other hand, I really don't think that the +2 save DC helps the Monk enough to matter in either direction. A high-level Wizard is likely to have Moment of Precience, which makes their first save modifier nearly irrelevant. Furthermore, the Monk has to actually close with the Wizard, which is highly unlikely with a minimally prepped Wizard.

The monk isn't immortal, he merely does not suffer the effects of aging. When he gets to his time, he still dies. As a wizard, I'd teleport away, and pick a battle at a time and place of my choosing. If the monk is going to bottle himself up in a dungeon he's not going to be much of a problem for me when I'm going about my business in the rest of the world now is he?

Also note that the Wizard can affect the shape/makeup of the dungeon (Passwall, Disintegrate, Stone Shape, appropriately called/gated creature) far easier and faster for a sustained duration than any Monk build I can come up with.

 

[Anubis]

I don't think forcecage is a commonly memorized spell for wizards. The only way the wiard beats the monk is by taking spells that work specifically toward that goal. I've never seen forcecage used even once by PCs in a standard adventure. Even if you consider that one fair, quickened dimensional anchor and dimensional lock are most certainly rarely used in common adventuring.

So if you take a standard monk with standard gear against a standard wizard with standard spells, the wizard will most likely lose. Wizards are far more likely to take horrid wilting than quickened dimensional anchor or dimensional lock; also, the former requires a touch attack (good luck with that against a monk) and the latter has to get through SR (also not guaranteed to succeed.

Frankly, I don't know any wizards who commonly take duel-type spells as part of their normal spells-per-day. That is somethign that requires foreknowledge of the situation. Any monk with a brain, however, will have a means to permanently be able to fly, as it's their one real weakness.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Part of me wants to agree with what Anubis is saying. So far, the arguments have broken down to:

1.) Wizard's can kick all sorts of butt... if they know what they're fighting before hand.

2.) Monk's don't have much variety or even many options when going up against the wizard, but they can do some damage once they get past that "wall of spells."

3.) Monks can get magic items to take care of glaring weaknesses (such as the inability to fly, etc).

I'll agree with others though that in an arena type setting, the wizard wins a majority of the encounters. But as Anubis said, that's also assuming that the wizard sat down at the dinner table one night and said, "How can I crush this martial artist guy who swings with just his bare hands?" This is also assuming the wizard has a spellbook that has access to all those nifty monk killing spells that everyone is talking about, and that said wizard is going to make it a point of memorizing all of these spells. This also assumes that in-game, the monk will actually willingly call out the wizard, declare what his "class" is, and give the wizard knowledge as to how to defeat him.

"Dear Wizard:

I just wanted to inform you that I'm going to attack you head on with my hands and feet. Careful, I have spell resistance that you'll need to crush. I will charge you from 100 yards away, in an open field. Let us begin this fight tomorrow.

Signed - Dumb Monk"



Sure, the wizard is more "powerful," as are all spellcasters at high levels compared to their melee counterparts, but melee characters have a few methods, albeit very limited, to dispatch of their spell-slinging friends, especially the monk.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh ok, I got what you're saying. However, I think that by limiting the arena to such stringent rules, you're indirectly taking away from the effectiveness of a Wizard's class abilities - i.e., his ability to cast any spell he knows that comes from the PHB. If you don't allow him to teleport (or cast any other spell) to the maximum range that is allowed by the spell, then you're hampering his class-given abilities, which I think is what we're trying NOT to do, because this is a fight between a monk and a wizard, not a monk and a slightly worse than core wizard. That's like saying:

"Ok, let's pit a Monk and a Fighter against each other, but the arena is closed, meaning you can't leave it, and it's too small for the Monk to Abundant Step to his full range, because even if he started on one extreme border when he Stepped, he would Step out of the arena, and lose the fight by default." - That sounds like its making the Monk's class abilities a little worse, hampering the class.

Granted, being stuck in the arena hinders the wizard's options. However, I think it far from compensates for the boon he gets in this style of contest. As others have pointed out, the wizard has what is supposed to be 4-5 CR 20 battles worth of spells to blow on this single battle. Not to mention foreknowledge of the encounter is unquestionably an advantage to the wizard. I'll even prove it through logic if you don't agree.
1. The main advantage of foreknowledge is the ability to prepare
2. The more versatile your abilities (or options), the more you can prepare for a specific problem
3. With all his spells and the same spending cash for magic items, the wizard has more options than the monk to utilize
Therefore, the wizard has a greater benefit from the advance knowledge of the encounter.

So, for both those major advantages, being limited by the boundaries of the arena seems like a more than fair trade-off. With spells like invisibility and non-detection still perfectly functional, this needn't be much of a problem. Besides, a crafty mage could make the arena's constraints a nightmare for the monk. A few high level summon monsters, and making various "zones" of the arena certain death with evard's black tentacles, cloudkill, etc.. you can herd the monk around like a sheep.

 

[Demoquin]

Is it me or did everyone miss out on Quivering Palm? Fort save or Die outright.