Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[FrogReaver]

So, a player asked me today in what way is a Wizard at all better than a Sorcerer. Since we are just beginning 5E, I have one player as a Sorcerer, but no one has played a Wizard yet. In looking over the classes, all I could suggest was the larger spell list for the Wizard. Any other big ticket things I am missing???

To more directly answer this question, no matter what options the sorcerer chooses, Wizards are flat out better than sorcerers at:

exploration
debuffing
providing a safe place to rest
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Staying Alive
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Using illusion spells
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Using enchantment spells
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Using divination spells
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Raising undead
(Provided an appropriate wizard subclass) Dispel and Counterspell

Wizards are quite a bitter better than a sorcerer at some relatively broad areas of the game while also being better than the sorcerer at some specific areas of the game provided an appropriate subclass. That's the answer to your opening question.

The larger spell list isn't what they are better at than sorcerers but that larger spell list and their greater number of spells known and prepared and their ritual casting allow nearly any given wizard to excel over any given sorcerer in the areas I listed above.

The only things a sorcerer can do that is better than a wizard is buff and it requires one specific choice at level 3 to make that possible. Sorcerers also can slightly edge out evocation wizards on blasting IMO but it's not enough that it makes giving up the other wizard advantages worth taking sorcerer over wizard for this IMO.

So I guess really the question that should be being asked by your player is, what can sorcerers do that wizards can't?

 

[smbakeresq]

These spells aren't on the sorcerer list. Sorcerers don't choose them because they don't get to make that choice. I'd love to be able to choose them, but the designers arbitrarily decided they should be wizard only.

I didn’t check but the point is the same. With limited spell selection you wouldn’t take rituals unless you had to. You would ask if anyone else has it covered first, then take it. I have never seen a Sorcerer take detect magic at first level, detect thoughts at 2nd, etc.

Sorcerer are built to be offensive powerhouses, which they are good at. They also make easy to run bad guys for DM.

A diviner Wizard as a bad guy is tough to run as a DM, they will “know” most of what the DM does about the PCs so you have to be careful not to appear to railroad the PCs.

 

[smbakeresq]

I think the Sorcerer needs greater and more varied class features. Some really odd stuff thrown in to make up for limited spells known. Physical changes for example, the Dragonborn feats are generally bad but they would be neat if they were Dragon Sorcerer class features.


Spell points just don’t do it for me.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think the Sorcerer needs greater and more varied class features. Some really odd stuff thrown in to make up for limited spells known. Physical changes for example, the Dragonborn feats are generally bad but they would be neat if they were Dragon Sorcerer class features.


Spell points just don’t do it for me.

I love sorcery points but they tied to many abilities to a much to limited pool of the things. The sorcerer would have greatly benefited from having many abilities be x times per rest with the additional benefit of being able to spend sorcery points to use them additional times.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think the Sorcerer needs greater and more varied class features. Some really odd stuff thrown in to make up for limited spells known. Physical changes for example, the Dragonborn feats are generally bad but they would be neat if they were Dragon Sorcerer class features.


Spell points just don’t do it for me.

To be honest, I think some class would benefit A LOT from having a greater selection of class ability. I mean, the Warlock got a bunch of new Invocations in XGtE, but we still have the same number of Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Hunter ability etc than with the PHB.

I think that a few more of those would go a long way to help with some critics people have of those classes.

 

[smbakeresq]

To be honest, I think some class would benefit A LOT from having a greater selection of class ability. I mean, the Warlock got a bunch of new Invocations in XGtE, but we still have the same number of Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Hunter ability etc than with the PHB.

I think that a few more of those would go a long way to help with some critics people have of those classes.

Yes they would. The only thing most people saw about Warlock was Hexblade dips for everything else. There are some good invocations in there.

The new warlord is good, it has some unique things

 

[Ashrym]

I see some misconception on sorc points vs arcane recovery.

A typical sorc day does use the points for metamagic and will burn low level slots to power higher slot metamagic. This is what gives sorcs the typical in-combat advantage over wizards. This tends to create a situation where wizards end up with more slots per day even before arcane recovery, although to be fair twin is like using the same slot twice.

If it becomes important to stretch out spell slots, a sorc does the opposite. Burning higher level slots to create low level slots gives the sorc more slots per day even with arcane recovery and still leaves room for some metamagic. This is uncommon because it's not usually necessary because of the cantrip spamming alternative. It does respond to the arcane recovery comment.

I also saw comments on rituals being over-rated. I generally think this is true but that's not because it's a weak feature -- it's because I've never struggled adventuring without rituals. Rituals also kill longer concentration spells, which can prevent me using them or actually cost me a slot. I miss metamagic more than I miss rituals when having neither or one over the other.

Ritual casting is useful regardless and when I play classes that have it I do use it. Especially at low levels. The way wizards use them also closes the gap compared to clerics and druids, who do need to prep rituals to use them.

I saw a comment on buffs vs debuffs. Buffs don't require a save or hit roll. Buffs are a solid approach for any caster for that reason. Spell DC's can be relatively low at lower levels so buffing limits the risk of failed slot use. Twinning buffs is great.

 

[Dausuul]

Rituals also kill longer concentration spells, which can prevent me using them or actually cost me a slot.

Rituals don't require or break concentration. Unless you mean that you lose the spell because its duration is shorter than the 10 minutes it takes to cast the ritual?

 

[Ashrym]

Rituals don't require or break concentration. Unless you mean that you lose the spell because its duration is shorter than the 10 minutes it takes to cast the ritual?

Any spell with a casting time longer than one action requires concentration. PHB pg 202...

"Longer Casting Times

Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require
more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you
cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single
action or reaction, you must spend your action each
turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your
concentration while you do so (see “Concentration”
below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails,
but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try
casting the spell again, you must start over."

 

[FrogReaver]

I saw a comment on buffs vs debuffs. Buffs don't require a save or hit roll. Buffs are a solid approach for any caster for that reason. Spell DC's can be relatively low at lower levels so buffing limits the risk of failed slot use. Twinning buffs is great.

True. but when a debuff works, it typically hurts an enemy much more than a buff helps your allys. The real downside of debuffing is legendary resistance but that comes up fairly rarely and it really doesn't turn up until higher levels.

Keep in mind there are plenty of group debuffs like slow or hypnotic pattern and many debuffs scale up in number of targets so you can usually target all the enemies or at least all the important enemies with a debuff. Buffing only typically affects 1 ally or 2 at most with twin spell.