D&D General Wizards are not rational/scientists

Wolfram stout

Adventurer
Supporter
I like the OP's thoughts, and meant to post sooner. I am currently playing a Wizard and didn't want to go the researcher/academic route. I made him a Performer (Background) whose magic first showed up when he gave a particularly riveting performance.

His spellbook is a book of excerpts from Plays, Poems, etc. He has to translate any spells into one of these, then very carefully mark which words are emphasized with which body language and which props (IE V,S,M components). His morning studying is him rehearsing those notes.

Regards,
 

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squibbles

Adventurer
[...} A wizard has NO HELP to master magic. NOTHING but sheer determination and their wits. Think about it. They must be obsessed with magic, in a way most other casters don't have to be. In what strange ways do they have to warp their mind to be able to grasp magic? What ritual must they do? Trepanation? Days of meditation? "Herbs"? Magic is not science. The mental habits and practices scientists develop (and try to apply, it's hard) may be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT for wizards. There is no guarantee of rationality here.

[...]

So next time you play a wizard, consider the strong possibility that by the standards of mere mortal, your PC may be utterly bonkers.
Yes, that's a fun take on wizards. I like particularly like the Goblinpunch version of it, which doubles down on the strangeness of Vancian casting:

"Memorizing a spell is not like memorizing a series of noises and hand motions. It's like inviting a spell into your brain by creating a suitable environment for it to reside. [...] To put it another way, it's like weaving a netted bag (out of your neurons) to catch (invite) a fish (spell). [...] Because spellcasting requires a very specific microenvironment in a very small part of the wizard's brain, the act of "memorizing" a spell requires cultivation of certain mental traits. Not only must wizards learn otherworldly esoterica, but they must also believe some of it as well. [...] And so wizards believe such strange things because they must. If they stopped believing in these things, they would cease being wizards. [...] They guard their thoughts by following strange traditions. They filter their perception of reality by isolating themselves in towers and in monasteries. In their books they have built a false history of the world with false maps and false assumptions. And yet the same wizards who can level a city block with a few words are also the ones who have no idea how boats float or babies are concieved."​

But, you know, that's a little avant garde for most players (as is almost all of the creative genius on that blog), and I'm fine with the more banal interpretation of wizards, that magic is a scholarly discipline and that you can study it.

However, I also have some objections to the common interpretation.

Nah, never been impressed by this take. Wizards study repeatable actions within a rational system. What they have helping them are the generations of wizards and arcane theorists and archivists that have come before them. Like scientists.
It's less that the wizard is not rational or scientific.

It's more that the logic of wizard's magic is weird. As if it was designed for beings to not accidentally figure it out or do by happenstance.

Wizards are scientists. It's just that most of it is bonkers, barely relates with each other, and attempting to understand what you do know requires strange actions and habits.
Making the jump from wizards are scholars to wizards are scientists, or even physicists, always seemed like a mistake to me. Most academic disciplines rely on rationality and the cumulation of decades or centuries of theory and academic tradition. That wizards study spellbooks and have schools doesn't require them to be scientists. It makes as much sense to compare them to philosophers, theologians, Jungian psychologists, and English lit majors as to physicists.

Though wizard magic in D&D follows consistent and generally replicable patterns (oops, he made his saving throw), its logic is symbolic. If you look at 5e's spell components, they are all silly medievalisms. And though they are presumably based on past empirical observations--i.e. using a pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a cricket is known to allow one to cast sleep--spells don't connect to anything or cohere in any cosmologically meaningful way.

In my mind, 5e wizard magic is an academic discipline (or guild profession), built upon inexplicably functional cargo cult thinking, that is practiced as an applied science, like medicine, but with (probably) many traditions of pseudoscientific nonsense built around it, like new age medicine 😝.
 

Oofta

Legend
Wild mage is just corny and "lolrandom", not dark and dangerous. The problem is the worldbuilding. if magic is safe, predictable, and easy to learn (as demonstrated by the rules), why isn't EVERYONE a caster? Muh v-tude can't take it.
For the same reason not everyone is a physicist or a concert pianist. Motive, opportunity, capability. Might as well ask why everyone is not a professional football player.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Wild mage is just corny and "lolrandom", not dark and dangerous. The problem is the worldbuilding. if magic is safe, predictable, and easy to learn (as demonstrated by the rules), why isn't EVERYONE a caster? Muh v-tude can't take it.
The same reason everyone isnt a carpenter, plumber or electrician or if you like a Lawyer, Accountant or Biologist

Though wizard magic in D&D follows consistent and generally replicable patterns (oops, he made his saving throw), its logic is symbolic. If you look at 5e's spell components, they are all silly medievalisms. And though they are presumably based on past empirical observations--i.e. using a pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a cricket is known to allow one to cast sleep--spells don't connect to anything or cohere in any cosmologically meaningful way.

In my mind, 5e wizard magic is an academic discipline (or guild profession), built upon inexplicably functional cargo cult thinking, that is practiced as an applied science, like medicine, but with (probably) many traditions of pseudoscientific nonsense built around it, like new age medicine

except that is not pseudoscientific thinking - fine sand and rose petals is known to work empirically in a D&D world, where the magical essences are real and similarity and contangion work in place of Newton and Thermodynamics.
Think of it as the Science of Aristotle rather than the Science of Einstein

Symbolic logic is the science of DnD
 
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Staffan

Legend
I think part of the problem (if you can call it that) of wizards having to study with no help of bloodline or pact is due to the sorcerer stealing the old school story element of magic in the blood, I tend to still hold that wizards also have magic in the blood and just bring it about in a different way to a sorcerer, if you don't have that spark of magic, then no magic for you.
Back in early 3e, when sorcerers were new and fancy, I had an idea for a setting where wizards were the "killer app" of civilization, as it were. Sorcery could pop up in all sorts of creatures, and while individual sorcerers could be quite powerful, they were also rare and unpredictable. But wizards didn't need any particular "magic blood" or "spark of magic", just hard study, so that meant that civilizations that could cultivate academic institutions would be able to produce wizards in far greater numbers.
 

Staffan

Legend
Though wizard magic in D&D follows consistent and generally replicable patterns (oops, he made his saving throw), its logic is symbolic. If you look at 5e's spell components, they are all silly medievalisms.
There are quite a few modern or at least modern-ish references as well. For example, the component for detect thoughts is a copper piece ("Penny for your thoughts?"), and the one for silent image is a bit of fleece (pulling the wool over someone's eyes).
 

squibbles

Adventurer
except that is not pseudoscientific thinking - fine sand and rose petals is known to work empirically in a D&D world, where the magical essences are real and similarity and contangion work in place of Newton and Thermodynamics.
Think of it as the Science of Aristotle rather than the Science of Einstein

Symbolic logic is the science of DnD
There's a slight misunderstanding here. I don't mean that the pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or cricket are pseudo-scientific, they're "past empirical observations", i.e. received wisdom. What I meant is that, in addition to learning the particulars of all those spell components in, say, wizard school, wizards would also be taught a bunch of incorrect midichlorian-esque fantasy babble about magic.

e.g. they might say that "because fireball is a convocation of the seventh circle of the third house, its potency depends on your hands' alignment with Algol the demon star" to explain the cause of the variable damage--which we, as players, know is silly; it's a random roll.

There are quite a few modern or at least modern-ish references as well. For example, the component for detect thoughts is a copper piece ("Penny for your thoughts?"), and the one for silent image is a bit of fleece (pulling the wool over someone's eyes).
Ha! That silent image one went completely over my head.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Yes, that's a fun take on wizards. I like particularly like the Goblinpunch version of it, which doubles down on the strangeness of Vancian casting:

"Memorizing a spell is not like memorizing a series of noises and hand motions. It's like inviting a spell into your brain by creating a suitable environment for it to reside. [...] To put it another way, it's like weaving a netted bag (out of your neurons) to catch (invite) a fish (spell). [...] Because spellcasting requires a very specific microenvironment in a very small part of the wizard's brain, the act of "memorizing" a spell requires cultivation of certain mental traits. Not only must wizards learn otherworldly esoterica, but they must also believe some of it as well. [...] And so wizards believe such strange things because they must. If they stopped believing in these things, they would cease being wizards. [...] They guard their thoughts by following strange traditions. They filter their perception of reality by isolating themselves in towers and in monasteries. In their books they have built a false history of the world with false maps and false assumptions. And yet the same wizards who can level a city block with a few words are also the ones who have no idea how boats float or babies are concieved."​

But, you know, that's a little avant garde for most players (as is almost all of the creative genius on that blog), and I'm fine with the more banal interpretation of wizards, that magic is a scholarly discipline and that you can study it.
Goblinpunch went on to create the GLOG, a D&D like system with a very innovative magical system, based on spells being alive :)
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
Listen: this is a play it like you want thing.

playing wizards like mathematicians and not mysterious and arcane takes me right out of it.
Ymmv

I like to think of them as combining anything they combine—compelling spirits the extraplanar and laws of magic throufh lost lore…not dudes with algebraic equations or whatever.

that said I don’t like the weave and other things like midichlorians. Let the force be the force.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
Goblinpunch went on to create the GLOG, a D&D like system with a very innovative magical system, based on spells being alive :)
Oh yes, I'm well aware.

I never much liked his approach to class design prior to the GLOG's Lair of the Lamb version, though (which is excellent). There were always far too many different fiddly wizard classes. (which I'm led to believe the GLOGosphere has only increased)

Listen: this is a play it like you want thing.

playing wizards like mathematicians and not mysterious and arcane takes me right out of it.
Ymmv

I like to think of them as combining anything they combine—compelling spirits the extraplanar and laws of magic throufh lost lore…not dudes with algebraic equations or whatever.

that said I don’t like the weave and other things like midichlorians. Let the force be the force.
Yeah, of course. I don't think @Ancalagon is making a one true way type argument.

I read it as a reevaluate your priors type argument critiquing the prevailing wisdom that wizards are medieval-garbed physics postdocs, who also shoot lightning bolts.
 

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